Green Party pledge to reduce c section rates

[TTCaxristi]

Is this something a political party should even get involved in?

I had understood that a focus on keeping c sections below an arbitrary threshold was at least partially responsible for the Shrewsbury maternity scandal.

https://news.sky.com/story/shrewsbury-maternity-scandal-the-babies-who-died-in-the-uks-worst-hospital-childbirth-scandal-12576727

It looks as though the greens are reviewing the policy now but am I alone in finding this chilling? What does it say about their attitude to women? I really strongly believe that it’s up to the individual woman how she gives birth, and the focus on arbitrary targets is misguided at best and dangerous at worst.

YABU - this is something a political party should have a policy on
YANBU - this is not something a non medical entity should have policy on

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/green-party-nhs-lbc-b1162105.html#

What does "green party" have to do with this matter??
☹️

Exactly. And they have a point and probably have decided to do so on medical/obstetric advice. Maternity services should be hugely improved, including staffing levels. THAT is the true issue. And the more of the budget is taken by C-Sections, which work out hugely expensive in terms of specialised staff, theatre, etc- the less there is to improve the service for the majority.

C-sections are NOT without risks, and should not become the norm for the majority. The key is huge improvements in maternity care- and a return to C-sections for true medical need.

I was a member but left after they went loopy over identity politics - I just don't want to be associated with the mutilation of children/non-man/Challenor/Scottish batshit Greens.

A very nice lady rang me yesterday asking if I could volunteer in the approach up to the election and I know our local party are genuinely 'green' but I am out.

I do have a lot of admiration for people like Jenny Jones in the HoL though.

C-sections are very far from the norm for the majority. Wtf has this myth that normal women are choosing to have c-sections for frivolous reasons come from?

It’s the opposite though. Long term the costs are lower for elective c sections than vaginal births and EMCS

If anything to save money long term they should be actively encouraging women to have them! Could plan more in, staffing could be more structured etc.

Is this because men who identify as women don’t like the idea of a C section?
They do seem to shy away from surgery. 🤔

It’s a hugely positive thing. Our C section rates are far higher than they should be as a result of sub standard care. The important thing is that it’s not lip service, so proper supportive relationships with the same midwife m improved ratios and properly trained midwives who really understand their role and consultants and hospitals that work with this. So many of the interventions that are routine are unnecessary and intrusive.

The Green Party's contempt for women is visible from space (unless they are 'women' with a cock, balls and fishnets).

Any woman supporting them is a lost cause frankly. They are dripping with misogyny.

Who decided that C section numbers are too high anyway? If every woman who needs a C section has one, how can that number be too high? That's the right number!

You know what happened before c sections?

Women and babies died. They were left with life long birth injuries (that still happens actually) But hey, at least those pesky women won't be making the NHS numbers look bad by having informed choices about their medical care.

There's a lot of other stuff to be trimmed from the NHS before we look at cutting maternity care even more.

I think we need more c sections actually. Birth is dangerous. Women are being put at risk. We need real, proper informed consent and discussions around care early on, letting women make a choice about their birth experience and not being railroaded into the cheapest option. It's no good talking about sections when the woman is already in labour and things are going south.

Yes might not. I didn't. And I never had a drip either. I had something after they broke my waters - which didn't work. Then after a day they shoved something up me which also didn't work. Two days after they tried shoving a second item up me which slowly started to work. She was two weeks overdue, her heartbeat wasn't great and they wanted to induce labour by breaking my waters.

So initially I think of course they shouldn't be going anywhere near that and then I thought about the discrepancies that exist in our healthcare service, particularly within maternity services.

I had an elected section due to my family history and a few other reasons including inconsistency of care. But I have no doubt that there are other women who are choosing to have a section because they are worried about substandard care/a lack of support in labour/ the higher mortality rates for black women in particular/ maternity staff shortages and the pressure on remaining staff etc etc. So I think there is a place to address these concerns because really it comes down to ensuring that women have adequate healthcare and perhaps greater consistency of care and that services that care predominantly for women are better equipped and resourced. I would see that as a positive.

If healthcare providers react by attempting to force women into vaginal deliveries instead of working alongside to improve services rather than harm women in their care then that's on them but that in itself is a sign that priorities have to shift and I imagine a lot of that will also depend on what approach is taken by the green party.

For example, many hospitals will display their rates of section v vaginal delivery, but don't include rates of emergency v elected section. Or their rates of how many women are having overly medicalised births with more intervention than is actually needed. That needs further investigation so that women are better equipped to make informed choices.

My local hospital publishes the stats monthly @Lavender14 and I find it shocking. Last month, for example:

20% elective sections

Then of the vaginal deliveries, 33% of them became emergency sections. One in three chance! I think that’s horrifying.

Also of the vaginal deliveries, 12% were forceps / ventouse.

Finally, 8% of the vaginal deliveries had 3rd or 4th degree tears.

The stats are similar every month. I find them shocking.

I don't think you can look at C-Section rates in isolation as they're linked to so many other factors - birth-related claims for compensation being one of them.

Breaking your waters manually may increase risk of cord prolapse, but there must be a risk they are trying to avoid by breaking your waters to bring on labour? For example, you are significantly over term and there is evidence that stillbirths increase for overterm babies. Or you have been in none productive labour for a long time, which also has risks to the health of the baby. They are not just doing it for fun. It's all a question of balancing risks. Which politicians are not qualified to do in this case.

Do you know for sure they are unnecessary?
In 1900 I expect birth was nice and natural in the UK. The neonatal death rate was 150 per 1000, ie 15% of babies died at or near birth. Now (2020) the neonatal death rate is 4 per 1000, 0.04%. So a better standard of medical care including c-sections, forceps, ventose etc has saved the lives of 14.6% of babies born in the UK in 2020. Sure the medical interventions occur in more than 14.6% of cases, but predicting who needs help is the problem here and it is not straighforward. (figures from Statistica)

Well, politicians aren’t all experts on medicine but they’re not experts on decarbonisation or lots of other areas that they develop policy positions on, are they?

I’m not defending their position here - I’m just saying it’s pretty much the role of political parties to have policy positions on healthcare, social care, the environment, education, immigration, policing…….. You would hope they would get input from experts and engage with the public when they’re developing positions, but I’m not sure why you’d question the fact that they have a position on medical care per se?

Doctors aren’t just left to make individual choices about care - they make decisions within guidelines - ethical guidelines set by their regulator, the NICE guidelines and so on. All part of public policy making and implementation.

Yes I suspect this is another example of women just not ' womaning' properly. They need to be shown how to do it by men- wear loads of makeup, pigtails, short skirts and fishnets, show off your boobs and give birth the natural way.

If we look at it from a safety point of view for mothers and babies surely intervention and surgery rates will rise during childbirth due to maternal age being higher and more maternal risk factors such as obesity. You cant dial that back to some fantasy where everyone giving birth is a healthy 25 year old. This policy does and will put women and babies at risk.

Have you read the article you link to? It says they are reviewing that policy not that they're bringing it in.

I think they label it as expensive rather than risky

Fucking hell, the Green Party really hates women, doesn’t it? They don’t even seem to give much of a shit about ecology - their main focus seems to be wanting men to have access to women’s spaces and rabid trans activism.

It’s a travesty. We need a party which is focused on positive movement towards societal change in terms of the environment. Greens are a misogynistic shitshow.

Child free woman here.
Why are they far from the norm?
I think something similar to a C section used to be performed by old Egyptians, in order to save mum and kid.
How odd a comment.

It's back to lavender water and a strap to bite down on for the none-men. Try not to kick the bucket and weaponise your tears.

How dare they.

Not everyone wants an ‘all natural, under a tree’ labour. I didn’t - I made it extremely clear I wanted an epidural as early as possible in both labours and this was ignored, as ‘you’re progressing so quickly hang on a moment and you might not need it’. For hours after that I was thrashing around screaming and the birth was NOT a thing of natural beauty, frankly I’m a bit scarred by my second one.

Always maternity where pain relief and medical care is painted as unneccessary isn’t it

Even when I had a vbac discussions appt it was mainly about c section risks. I had found online there was a 10% chance of a third degree tear with a vbac. That wasn’t mentioned!