My 92-year-old mum thinks a Power of Attorney is “bossy”

[PoAornevermind]

She set a Power of Attorney up approx 20 years ago but has lost it and it is not registered.

She has stalled on either trying to find it or apply for another one for a months now. My sister spoke to her about it at the weekend and mum wanted to put it off until “later”. Today she told me it all sounded a bit “bossy”.

I have explained that she can appoint whoever she wants as PoA, but please do one as I don’t want to be left with a nightmare of dealing with banks etc, should it be needed. My relationship with my sister is very difficult so that would presumably just add to the issues.

Mum has no hesitation in accepting plenty of care and support from my sister and I over years. She is fully with it at the moment, fully mobile etc, just a bit forgetful at times.

If she loses capacity without a PoA, what might I be in for, and can I distance myself from the mess?

AIBU to feel I’m in a stressful position or should I just leave it? It is after all entirely her choice.

If she loses capacity you will not be able to access her finances to pay bills, etc without applying for a court order which could take months to be granted. You will also have no right to talk to her doctors and make decisions on her behalf.

She can’t have “set one up” if it was never registered. Until the POA has been registered it is a worthless document.

Go on the gov.uk website and see if you can find her registered POA. My mum set one up and I forgot to set it up so had to request the code again recently, but it was only from a couple of years ago. There’s no reason it couldn't be found tho.

I’m in the same boat OP, my mum doesn’t want to discuss it. I’ve resigned myself to having to pick up the pieces in the future.

If there is no PoA the bank cannot legally deal with you. You would need to apply to be a legal guardian (process varies depending on where you are in the UK). Will be more complex and expensive than PoA.

Thanks, @cavemum. I was with her when a solicitor checked it. My understanding is that if she had the document it would be valid, but she can't get a copy as it was not registered. But that's a bit of a red herring as it is lost.

You can apply for POA through the courts. More expensive and almost certainly will take longer to grant, and I think you'd have to wait until she has lost capacity.

DH (only child) asked our lawyer to come to PIL's house to get their POAs signed, when they were on the cusp of being diagnosed with dementia. The lawyer used the line that without appointing DH as their attorney, the council might one day decide where they might have to move to, if they needed care. Is there an argument that would persuade your DM? Couched as something to benefit her, not you, obviously.
Or do nothing, if you'd rather not have POA for her at all. Do you trust your sister?

That's what I did and found that it had not been registered.

My df is the same op.
He has a foreign bank account too which nobody can access as he hasn’t got the capacity anymore and we are not allowed to touch it. Thousands of euros in a current account earning not a penny in interest.

If it was 20 years ago it was likely the old Enduring Power of Attorney which was not registered until the donor lost capacity. So she could be quite right that she “set one up”

It sounds like she's concerned about losing control over her affairs, which is a really common concern, it's not hard to see why it might be scary for some older people. Could you get a solicitor to come out and have a conversation with her/you all, to reassure her that POA isn't used until the person has actually lost capacity?

That's it, @MereDintofPandiculation. Thank you, it makes sense now.

It's not really that I want to persuade her, it's that I want to know what the implications will be if she doesn't do one. I've read the government and Age UK information on this, but I'm still unsure what it would look like in practice.

If she's chosen, with full capacity, not to set one up then I don't want to go down the courts route.

I'm currently living with her, as she cannot live alone, although does not need much care. I should have said that in my OP. I'm guessing it will have implications for that.

Tell her that will only apply if she end up in the situation that she is not able to look after herself. Tell her if this is set up it means in this case only that you can speak to her doctor, the banks, insurance companies ect. Tell her it means you can sort things out and her good value on say her house insurance ect.
Most older people like to keep their money. I would tell her as well it ensures that her life can remain as comfortable as possible.

Has she a sister, brother or some one close to her own age that she might listen to? Would she listen to her doctor or the public health nurse?
It would be better for you and her if you could set this up. Ring age UK and see if they have given you more information and advice on how to do this.

Will she let you set up another? Doing it now is the right thing, as you said, otherwise it's a real pita if she loses capacity.

You would find a lot of helpful information and support if you posted this question in Elderly Parents instead of AIBU.

Why do Mumsnetters still INSIST on posting every question under the sun in the AIBU topic? It makes me think they are not fully cogniscant much like the elderly mother referred to in this OP

I'm an only child and had raised the subject with my mother who was fully competent but she wasn't interested. Then she had a fall and broke her shoulder. She paid all bills by cheque, " don't trust these standing order/direct debits, people can just take money from your account " she couldn't write as normal so couldn't pay any bills because her signature didn't look like normal . We did go to the bank to say could they annotate her records to say she'd broken her shoulder and therefore her signature might be a bit shaky. Absolutely not was the answer. She never used her debit card either and had no clue what the number was as she would draw cash out using her cheque book. We fudge our way through it but it did get her to rethink the power of attorney. We did it and thank god because a year on from that she was diagnosed with mixed dementia and I'd have been completely snookered without the LPA.

What it would look like would depend on what your mum’s financial situation is like. If she doesn’t own a house or have significant savings/investments etc. and she only needs help managing a state pension or other state benefits, you could probably deal with it just by asking the DWP to make you her Appointee. You would then be able to specify what bank account her benefits should be paid into (so set up one yourself that you can access) and deal with the DWP on her behalf.

If she does have more significant assets that need managing, you would probably need a property and affairs deputyship. It does involve applying to court and while I understand why you might feel reluctant to do that if your mum chose not to appoint an attorney while she had capacity, it really does need to be done because otherwise none of her assets will be accessible to be used to support her if she loses capacity to manage them herself. If she needed paid care and didn’t have capacity to deal with making payments for this, the local authority may apply for deputyship if no family members were willing to do so, and I assume that as you live with her you would prefer to do this yourself rather than have to deal with social
workers any time you needed access to funds for your mother.

If she still has capacity and can be persuaded to make an LPA now or certainly makes things much easier. You can’t use it without her consent until she loses capacity, so she wouldn’t need to worry that her autonomy would be taken away prematurely.

This is the ultimate loss of independence and 'dignity'- perhaps even worse than losing driving licence. And for those who have had children who have often asked for large sums of money, like my mil in the past, a terrifying prospect and loss of control.

So needs to be approached with patience, empathy and love. Pushy children can be VERY scary.

You could apply for guardianship but only if she loses capacity. I'm in the process of doing that for mum right now. It can take months and will cost, although your mum(you on your mum's behalf)can apply for legal aid. You will need to hand over information about all your mum's savings, pension , possible debts etc and a mental health officer will be appointed by the court to assess your mum's capacity. Because I'm in the process of doing this, social work are liaising with me closely. It's not overly onerous at the moment but will be when I have to make decisions regarding her future care. I hope that helps.

From personal experience the last few weeks you are in for an utter shit show without one! I have financial and affairs but trying to implement it is a bloody nightmare - some organisations want a certified copy, so get a few! Bank has been brilliant, but pensions and benefits office are horrendous and without health and welfare NO ONE will discuss anything related to medical/ social issues. Currently trying to set up a health and welfare POA but informed this can take up to twenty weeks currently from date of payment Trust me, it's bad enough with it and the stress is unbelievable - never felt so drained in my entire life and the hours and hours you put in to it just finish you off! Good luck - you'll need a comfy chair and unlimited patience!

If your mum does not have a POA and continues to refuse to discuss the matter, there are two choices.

The local council take appointeeship of your mother finances and control.
A family member applies for deputyship, it is a much more expensive and complex process than applying for POA.

I would say, at age 92 if she is refusing to discuss her finances she may have already started to lose capacity and a POA may not be granted now anyway. I would advise having a tough conversation with your mum regarding your concerns, its now or never.

I wish there was more information aimed at older people regarding their future finances as it’s a huge issue in adult social care.

It sounds like the enduring power of attorney that my mum set up about 20 years ago. She completed it, had it witnessed, and gave me a copy to register at such time as she lost capacity, which had to be confirmed by a doctor. When my mum did lose capacity, I had to register it with the Court of Protection and notify various specified relatives to give them the opportunity to object if they wished. It was subsequently replaced by lasting power of attorney, which, as you say, can't be registered once capacity has been lost. Enduring power of attorneys are still valid and can be registered when they are needed, but I assume there aren't that many which haven't been registered now.

Everyone should set up PoA for both finance and health and welfare. With finance the person can allow the LPA to manage things even if they still have capacity but not the energy. For health and welfare it’s important but can only come into action if the person has lost capacity but even without one a relative or friend involved in a persons care/life should absolutely be being involved in decisions about their care. If someone really doesn’t have anyone then legally an Independent Mental Capacity Advocate should be appointed but they can only be appointed if there is no family/friends involved.

Then there are ways of being appointed if a person never had capacity or loses capacity but we should all plan ahead if you can. Good luck hopefully you can come to agreement with your mum about the way forward.

Sounds like there is no POA because it has not been lodged with the regulator. If she even has the paperwork, it means nothing without registration.

One thing you may be able to do, is get third party mandate. Ask his bank about it. Saved my sanity when my parent lost capacity with nothing else in place. At least I could get bills paid.

No, that's not the case. It was the old style EPA that is only registered when needed.

Thanks for the suggestion, but she’s unlikely to do anything like that.