My 92-year-old mum thinks a Power of Attorney is “bossy”

[PoAornevermind]

She set a Power of Attorney up approx 20 years ago but has lost it and it is not registered.

She has stalled on either trying to find it or apply for another one for a months now. My sister spoke to her about it at the weekend and mum wanted to put it off until “later”. Today she told me it all sounded a bit “bossy”.

I have explained that she can appoint whoever she wants as PoA, but please do one as I don’t want to be left with a nightmare of dealing with banks etc, should it be needed. My relationship with my sister is very difficult so that would presumably just add to the issues.

Mum has no hesitation in accepting plenty of care and support from my sister and I over years. She is fully with it at the moment, fully mobile etc, just a bit forgetful at times.

If she loses capacity without a PoA, what might I be in for, and can I distance myself from the mess?

AIBU to feel I’m in a stressful position or should I just leave it? It is after all entirely her choice.

That's useful, thanks, @lindsaybob.

Do I sound pushy?

I simply want to find out what the consequences will be for me if she chooses not to.

She has had so much empathy, love and care, and now she resists doing this one pretty standard thing to avoid my sister and I being put in an unnecessarily difficult situation.

I can't see how a reluctance to discuss financial affairs necessarily indicates loss of capacity. Anyway, it's not that she won't discuss it.

If she was losing capacity then surely a "tough" conversation would be totally inappropriate.

The EPA if you do find it only deals with finances so she would need to do a welfare one and could do a new financial one at the same time. If she doesn't want to set one up would she arrange third party access to her bank account and set up a living will instead,

My comment was not about you in particular. But how older people may feel that they are totally losing control of their own lives and choices. As soon as people hit 75+/80 - the children seem to want to take control, about the house, the car, the money, the .... everything.

Just try and imagine how it may feel, is all I am saying.

Actually, reluctance to discuss financial matters can be quite common in people who are losing capacity to manage their own financial affairs. Sometimes they refuse to discuss it because they are at least somewhat aware that they are beginning not to be able to understand/recall things about the topic that they know they should, so they deflect the discussion away to try to avoid people realising the gaps in their understanding.

Of course, I’m not saying this is the case for your mum. Plenty of people also just don’t like discussing their finances in general, but it is a thing that happens.

Thanks everyone for perspectives and suggestions. Tbh it's becoming increasingly clear that she doesn't want to make anything easier or straightforward, so all the sensible suggestions are very unlikely to appeal to her now. I'm not going to try to get anyone to speak to her. She understands how they work and why they are important. If she chooses not to have one, then perhaps my sister will pursue things.

I assume that you’re in Scotland? What they call guardianship in Scotland is called deputyship in England and Wales. As far as I understand, it’s essentially the same thing, but you won’t get legal aid for it in England! (I didn’t realise you could in Scotland, but I’m happy to hear that you can!)

Sorry, yes @lindsaybob, I do appreciate that can absolutely happen. I'm pretty sure it's not the case here though. She's happy to talk about anything, just unwilling to follow through.

I'm finding it hard to get my head around as she has had so much care and everything tailored to her for so long.

It’s definitely a difficult situation to navigate. I hope it doesn’t end up being too complicated for you in the long run. Many people keep their mental capacity their whole lives, so hopefully this will be the case for your mum 🤞🏻

It's the opposite here. Everything has been arranged to suit her. I have enabled her to stay in her family home as she is adamant that she doesn't want to downsize. Except when she decides she might like to and we arrange property viewings etc and then she backs off.

She is asked for nothing.

I told my stepmum "Good luck if you don't want to set one up as she'll then be in the hands of social workers who won't give a flying fuck about her and will naturally put money before her own wants/needs. They're snowed under and too busy to manage their workload. Who would she rather have looking out for her? The family that love her or a social worker?"

She set one up!

PoAornevermind

I do not criticise you for choosing to take the line you have chosen.
However when my MIL developed dementia some years ago there was no POA and it was too late to get her to sign one.
I ended up completing the paperwork to have DW & BIL’s appointed as Attorneys as none of them could bring themselves to face it. Beyond the considerable financial costs of obtaining the power for my DW & BIL’s to act as her court appointed attorneys, was, as mentioned by others above, the 5 month wait for a Judge of the Court of Protection to decide that there was a justifiable reason for the court to act.
The process of obtain the ruling included obtaining a documented diagnosis from MIL’s GP of incapacity through dementia and writing an extensive document that assassinated my MIL’s character and reputation demonstrating that she was a danger to herself and was both physically and mentally incapable of looking after herself. Fortunately the court accepted our request and the POA’s were granted first try. If the paperwork had been refused we would have had to start again.
Anyway, what I’m saying is the process of forcing through a POA after they loose capacity is stressful, vicious and I still feel guilty as hell 11+ years later.

If there is any way you get it voluntarily then I urge you to take that route despite the discomfort and potential embarrasment.

The above by @PurplePink45 sums it up. Esp in Surrey, where the social workers in adult social care are utter sociopaths and can keep their names out of the press.
It doesn't mean you have the power if she sets up an LPA - it means you can act in her interests when she's 'out of it' - temporarily or longer term. It doesn't just mean you take over immediately.
Social workers can put her in a home and keep her there. Not saying they will, saying the can.
In terms of LPA in Health and Welfare, that's it - you will never get the Deputyship if you apply for it, it's on a par with winning the jackpot on the lottery. So once that ship has sailed, it's gone.

There is a light touch version - if she will write letters to her bank requesting third party access to her accounts for you both, and to her GP giving permission to discuss her health with you both, some of the worst aspects are made easier.

If she won't do PoA, it just means that she is in the hands of a range of healthcare staff who have never met her and know nothing about her. Its not that she will retain independence, she is just choosing who gets to speak for her when the chips are down. If she wants to be kept alive as long as possible with maxinum loss of dignity and zero choice for years, fine.

Oh, you need that POA. My mum-in-law (she is now 91) registered hers in 2020…it took longer for it to get through due to the pandemic…she was totally independent with a good memory. Fast forward 2024…no short term memory, needs four drop in carers a day, can’t remember to pay her bills or take her meds. Without POA, it would be impossible to meet her needs .

Do something like this. There is so, so much work to do when they lose capacity that having POA makes that bit easier at least.

Capacity can be lost very quickly, especially of they add a bladder infection into the equation.

"okay mum, if you want social workers to decide where you live in later life, rather than me, then forget the POA. But you do realise that the only reason you're able to stay in your home is because I make it possible? And I won't be able to do that if I can't manage your bills and health and welfare decisions when you're unable to"

Oh, and social workers will be a hell of a lot more bossy

She’s still in the family home?

Ask her what happens if she’s not able to physically pay her bills for some reason? If she’s sick or in the hospital and the electricity company needs called about something, she gets a notice that something was screwed up with her bank account, the cable company says call us now or we are renewing your subscription…. Whatever mundane things she’s not thinking about that might need attention.

And yes you have to a little blunt. “Mum… at some point you’re going to need help. It’s not today, won’t be tomorrow, but at some point to keep things moving someone will need to be able to act for you”.

It’s hard @PoAornevermind but it’s a lot harder when you need it and don’t have it.

My mother was a narc, she refused to give me ( her only surviving child ) POA, she went as far as telling her solicitor I was trying to take her money.
She lost capacity and went into a home, it took 9 months for me to get deputyship.
In this time her house was haemorrhaging money,I couldn’t stop any utilities, private health etc

The local authority were supposed to put a deferred payment scheme in place for the home but they didn’t.
I was getting final demands for 36K!
It was the most stressful time of my life.
I wouldn’t even go to her house alone for fear of being accused of theft.
It was a nightmare.
You can get POA through the government website online it costs about a £100.
Its worth every penny, I wouldn’t wish what I went through on anyone.

My father refuses to have one or even discuss the matter - he 'doesn't need one' as he's 'not old enough' (79). There is no reasoning with him. Ex military who thinks he knows best about everything...... I will just wait and pick up the pieces.....

I wish he would shadow me in my job @SleepingisanArt, I work for a stroke team. The number of families I work with who are tearing their hair out over having no way of dealing with the most basic admin needs of their family member...

I was about to write out my saga… but really you summed it up.

My relative recently had a fall and was admitted to hospital , without capacity. Because she had a registered / activated POA for health/welfare as well as financial the doctors immediately rang me and we agreed treatment she would have wanted. The hospital was able to check directly with the Office of the Public Guardian so I didn’t even have to produce paperwork.

Then when she needed to be transferred to a care home I was able to reject offers made and push for somewhere local where friends could visit. She avoided a long stay in a noisy / stressful ward. Its not just about paying bills and having access to money, what impressed me was the sheer speed that we were able to act authoritatively because that paperwork was in place.