My 92-year-old mum thinks a Power of Attorney is “bossy”

[PoAornevermind]

She set a Power of Attorney up approx 20 years ago but has lost it and it is not registered.

She has stalled on either trying to find it or apply for another one for a months now. My sister spoke to her about it at the weekend and mum wanted to put it off until “later”. Today she told me it all sounded a bit “bossy”.

I have explained that she can appoint whoever she wants as PoA, but please do one as I don’t want to be left with a nightmare of dealing with banks etc, should it be needed. My relationship with my sister is very difficult so that would presumably just add to the issues.

Mum has no hesitation in accepting plenty of care and support from my sister and I over years. She is fully with it at the moment, fully mobile etc, just a bit forgetful at times.

If she loses capacity without a PoA, what might I be in for, and can I distance myself from the mess?

AIBU to feel I’m in a stressful position or should I just leave it? It is after all entirely her choice.

I've said all of that, @saltinesandcoffeecups. She seems to believe that everything will just be sorted out for her. She is somewhat above such matters.

If she continues to refuse discussing a POA then do get an assessment of her mental capacity. She’ll need to agree to this so broach the topic with your GP. She might not be able to give a POA if she’s not in her full mind and dementia could be at the cause of her ignoring the POA.

Thank you everyone and I'm sorry some posters have been through such nightmares.

Mum does have some narcissistic traits. She basically doesn't give a toss what mess she leaves behind. She has said as much.

She barely had to lift a finger for my dad when he was dying of cancer. I did all of it (with help of paid carers when he needed a full hoist etc). And I think she expects anything else necessary to be dealt with in a similar way.

Guess this is a bit of a drip feed, but I was originally thinking just of technicalities. I'm actually so hurt that she would be so dismissive of something so important.

This is going to sound very harsh - but how quickly could you move out of the family home ?

If your residence there is the only think that's keeping her at home, I suggest you give some thought as to moving out as some point.

When the brown stuff hits the fan, you'll be stuck with the bills etc.

We've dealt with one set of parents without POAs and it was indeed an absolute nightmare for SIL who handled it all. She was quoted in the region of £20k legal costs to put a POA / equivalent in place through the Court of protection and that was just for one parent.

@CaveMum if she set it up 20 years ago it would have been an Enduring Power of Attorney. The system then was the donor completed forms and notified others to give the power, but registration with the OPG was done only when the person lost capacity. But if the paperwork is lost it is of course useless!

Try the solicitor?

It's the refusal to be sensible that is a red flag.

Also the stubbornness, and perhaps there is paranoia or at the very least unwarranted suspicion of you and your sister behind that.

Plus the denial of the fact that she's really old and realistically can't look forward to many more years of robust health and independence.

These mindsets are often the start of loss of a grip on reality.

Unless they knew that somebody was going to oppose the application, meaning it would have to involve actually attending court for one or more hearings about it before the judge could decide whether to grant it, £20k is a ridiculously high quote.

I would expect a straightforward deputyship application, where neither the person for whom the deputyship is being sought or any other family members will oppose it, to cost no more than £5k. And for a property and affairs deputyship that cost can be paid out of the assets of the person for whom you are appointed deputy, you don’t have to pay it yourself. (It’s different for health and welfare deputyships, but these are much rarer and more difficult to get, as a previous poster mentioned.)

A LPA is really easy to do. You can do it online with the gov website. I just sat with my dad and did his. I sat next to him with the iPad, read the questions and he gave me the answers. You then print it out, get all parties to sign and then submit it to the office of the public guardian. It took 20 minutes to do and saves a world of pain down the line!

I having recently had to use LPA both types , due to my father being in hospital and needing to go into care. I can't tell you how important these documents are .

We were able to access funds , challenge the hospital and have access to medical records and decide the best place to go .

When we got them , never thought we would use them . They became the most important documents to hold . Especially as there was no way we could have forked out £10k for care before he even left hospital .

Neither of my parents would countenance having one, nor would they discuss it. I feel for you @PoAornevermind

They both died before it became an issue, but it worried me as the only living relative.

I have set one up for me, both financial and welfare, although I am only in my fifties. Everyone should do it to save their DCs from hassle and expense, which could be quite significant.

Bossy it might be. Buts it's also sensible , practical and safe. And this that choose to not bother are being a bit risky with their future if they lose capacity and a bit selfish towards those who will be stuck dealing with it at great time and expense. I'm a care manager and I can't stress the importance of this enough!

I created a thread on the same topic OP as am in the same situation with my mum

What does lack of LPA look like in worst case scenario? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/elderly_parents/5022408-what-does-lack-of-lpa-look-like-in-worst-case-scenario

To be fair, she has reached a very good age without the need for someone to take over her affairs. It’s likely that this will continue to be the case until she dies.
The only thing to consider would be if she DID need residential care, how would that be paid for. You say you live in her home, so I assume she owns it. I also assume youre over 60? If so, you cant be made to leave the home if she does go into care. It will be discounted when carrying out a financial assessment. But all her savings and income will be counted. Do you or your sister have a joint debit card? Or access to her bank account to pay bills? If so, you can pay her care home bills if needed. You can also arrange for her state pension to be paid into your bank account if it’s needed to pay care home bills. You dont need POA for this.
With regards as to where she may live if she needs care, you will be very certainly consulted. Even without POA.

She seems to believe that everything will just be sorted out for her

Well - it will, ultimately. But by social services. Who are overworked and have little time or budget. Who don’t know her and won’t have the time, money or inclination to pander to her wants. Her needs will be met, at her own expense, but not probably not in the manner of her choosing. I would ram that point home.

I’ve has exactly that with my own mother and it got to the point that I had to be really quite unkind about it all to get her to see sense. Lucky she did, as she then had a series of strokes and falls and only my intervention got her from a full care home (which she hated) to a much nicer sheltered accommodation set up. I really feel for you. I would tell her exactly what the consequences would be. It sounds like you usually try to spare your mother’s feelings. Don’t this time. These things are really important.

Perhaps you making her life so easy is to both your detriments. Necessity is the mother of all invention.

My parents completely refuse to have POA ] both late 80's ]. As a family, we have had this discussion many times about the possibility of them losing capacity and the fall out for everyone if there is no POA in place.
Both becoming very frail, no dementia. We have told them that with none in place, then social services can become involved if they require help, and that they, and their family, will have no say. To be honest I don't think that they believe that this can or will happen

For them it is the losing their final piece of independence, and it doesn't matter how sensible it is, there is no way they will agree to it.

We, as a family, have now had to take a step back and respect their wishes even if we don't believe it's right, knowing we will have to deal with it all once they are no longer around.

I have already set my own POA up as I don't want my children to go through the same thing.

You might try telling her that if she were to lose capacity, or be unable to speak for herself for any reason (e.g. a stroke) official decisions re her care would be down to social services - family hands would be tied.

Would she be happy with that?

Many older people are wary of SS - old connotations of their being needed only by the ‘poor and feckless’ so that might just work. If it were me, because I’m 😈, I’d add that they’d be poking into her private affairs, bank accounts, etc.

And then I might say, ‘But if you’d be happy with all that, fine - being an Attorney would mean quite a lot of work and hassle for whoever takes it on.’

My parents both had power of attorney for each other, set up before Dad was diagnosed with dementia. In terms of finances, it did make things easier as everything was gradually switched into joint names or just my mum's name and dad didn't need to consent to that.

However in terms of medical treatment it made not one iota of difference. Dad injured himself and was admitted to hospital, he was not able to understand really where he was or what was happening. The staff never once asked about a power of attorney. My mum and my sibling and I were kept fully informed at all times, he was unable to consent to treatment because he had no capacity and the medical team stepped in as it was an emergency. We discussed the DNR with the consultant, and we never felt blocked, not listened to or that we were prevented from doing/seeing anything or making any decisions, in conjunction with the health team.

In my experience, it's far more important for the finances. And @PoAornevermind please do not think that I am being harsh or unfeeling here. Your mum is 92. She is unlikely to follow the pattern which can affect people in their 60s/70s of developing dementia or something and there being a long, slow decline over several years, then eventual admission to a care home or needing care at home. You are very wise to consider the Power of Attorney but it may never be needed. I am assuming she has made a will to set out her wishes for inheritance?

Could you say to her that if the same happens to her, without POA you won’t be able to help her/put her views or plans into account and you’ll have to leave it all to ‘someone at the council.’ And you don’t intend on fighting for months over it.
I would just print off all the forms. See if you can catch her at a good time and go through it together.

My parents did theirs when they were about 60. Is she thinking that it’s something you do at deaths door?

It’s bizarre isn’t it . I mean it covers things like funeral wishes if you want, and your medical treatment. It’s not all about money and taking over someone’s life! Glad my parents just got on with it years ago.

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

If she loses capacity without POA and you have to go the court of protection route it will cost £ thousands of her money - a friend is going through this and I think is expecting a bill of £2,000, which will come out of the doner’s money. If she’s rather take the risk of paying that than pay substantially less now then that’s her loss.

Plus the time it is taking means the very nice care home her elderly relative is currently in may kick her out as her family can’t access her money while it all goes through, and she will be in a much less nice home that’s much less convenient for her family to visit.

Let them get on with the future they want. You’ve done your best and they refuse to get help in place. Point out that they won’t be able to pay bills and you won’t be able to sort it out. Step back from it all having made it clear you’ve done everything possible to protect the elderly person but they have refused your help. Don’t use your own money to cover future costs as you won’t get it back.

Me? The OP? Both? My mum is 86 and has never used the internet in her life and doesn't have a computer. She lives 5 hours away and first used her contactless card this year when I made her in a pub. If she wants something, eg a birthday card for my sibling in Australia, Moonpig is her go to (via me). She refused to learn how to use a computer and totally relied on my dad for everything finance related (but had full access to finances, there was no abuse or anything). She is clueless. I have POA as does a nearby relative if she wants anything online. We both have cards for her account just in case. Not really her fault.