To ask what about victims of male on male violence

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Many men are victims of violence by other men. The majority of men are murdered by other men, very often their friends or acquaintances. So, if that isn't being talked about enough, I created a thread right here, for that specific issue.

@ntmdino I can trust that a woman was abusive to a man. That doesn't challenge my view of the world. If none of the woman in your friendship group were victims of abuse or sexual violence then that really doesn't match up with the statistical proportions at all. That's not me saying I don't believe you - its saying that it is statistically incredibly unusual. I am still sticking with the fact that not everyone would be willing to expand on their own experiences in a "brutally honest" extensive conversation. To be fair, men can also be victims of sexual violence and its quite possible men in the group weren't talking about it either.

If the woman who was hospitalised was in a relationship that escalated from no abuse to hospitalisation with no in between stops then that is incredibly unusual. Its not that I think you are making stuff up, or that I want to dismiss what you say because it doesn't fit with my preconceived ideas. Just that you only have the information others were prepared to share with you and contrary to what you said it really doesn't match with the statistics.

For what its worth I broadly agree with your points on violence. I do worry that rather than going backwards not forwards in terms of generational fixes though - there are less resources now available to help mitigate or avert shitty upbringings for example.

I would say indirectly benefitting from women's presence rather than using them as a shield. Which is odd because women are much less useful in terms of physical protection than other men.
Or - the alternative explanation where areas with women feel safer is because its a sign that its a nicer/safer area rather than a reason. Or a mix of the 2 (it feels like a safer/nicer area so people behave better because they assume they are more likely to be challenged for aggressive/criminal behaviour, so it feels safer) etc etc.

But societies where women have more power or more social presence usually have less violence against women, and less violence against men as well.

On that last part...yes. It feels like violence in general has been increasing over the last few years, it can't have escaped anyone's notice - unfortunately, poverty, desperation and the gutting of public support services can easily cause that kind of increase in a short period of time, but I fear that repairing the damage to get back to where we were just a few years ago will take a decade or more.

you think men behave better when women are around?

Jesus Christ you must lead a sheltered life

What is the actual point of this thread OP?

No the violence has been constant through out history.

Dont try and blame the government on male violence.

Men are violent no matter what government are in. It’s innate.

Are we? Each to their own, but I have enough on my plate- work, kids, house, looking after us all and hoping my children never experience what I have at the hands of men.

As I say, maybe men need to step up and query the social constructs of masculinity. Kind of feel like I've given enough at this point. Are there forums of men querying the social constructs of femininity? While looking after the kids, hanging out the washing, cooking tea and dealing with the life admin? If so that'll free me up to discuss man problems.

Yes on the whole men do behave better when other adult women are around. There are exceptions, but I was talking about healthy societies/healthy communities.

Afghanistan is more violent than the UK for women (and for men). The English civil was was more violent for women and men than today (rape, witch trials, general killing). Violence has already existed, but at different levels in different times and places. Otherwise no-one would worry about whether X place is a nice area to raise children in. Otherwise no-one would bother having any sort of society or laws or government anyway.

Maybe it’s the men I know but they definitely do see women as protecting them, more the other way around. Perhaps it is the generation of men I am around so early to mid 40s, that said even my son who is a 6th former wouldn’t imagine his girlfriend as a human shield, I know this as he insists on walking from her house home late at night, he wouldn’t want to be met by her.

Don’t get me wrong I think this is sometimes problematic because you could argue that there is an inherent possessiveness in that action even if it is not even recognised as such.

Ultimately I think that is what drives men to be protective of women. Even if only unconsciously they regard the woman as a possession so they are guarding their possession. In return for protection she is expected to obey him subordinate her needs to his needs etc.

I find that a surprise as men I have come across my whole life are always of the mindset of ‘fixing’ things and solutions even when you have never bloody asked for one! In fact, I don’t know why the word ‘bossy’ is more associated with women as I find men very bossy in a work context, domestically, when I was growing up so my Dad is bossy. I do have very strong women in my life but that is irrelevant. The men I work with are pretty much all millennials and even they seem to be quite bossy. I work in male dominated area of IT security and I don’t work with any women directly in my team so these have been my observations.

I worry just as much about my young adult son as I did his older sister so I think this is a perfectly valid subject for MN.

I think that was definitely the case for me growing up but I’m not sure if younger men are like that anymore. I would hate to think of my son expecting that, he does it out of genuine concern for safety, he wouldn’t expect anything back. the me around my age so some of my DH’s friends I’m not so sure of, I find one of his friends incredibly childish in that way as he was making jokes to my DH about a male friend I have and it is ridiculous as he is just a friend, I thought it was quite telling that he would joke like this in front of me, I did point out that I’m not DH’s possession and DH was quick to back that up.

I don't think that's at all fair. I do think there is an element of in-group out-group dynamics in that women (or men) in the "in group" are more worthy of protection than those in the out group. But I think women have that attitude as well, its a really deep tribal way of thinking but its quite hard to shake off.

I didn't mean men see women as shields for men. Its more that, if you imagine a safe, high trust community it has men and women and children moving freely. As it becomes less safe, you might have women avoiding the area more so the area feels "rougher" and men are more defensive with each other and things can spiral. Its not that men need women around to physically protect them. Or that men can't be safe in single sex environments. They probably need them sometimes like we do.

Maybe saying men behave better when women are around isn't fair. They definitely behave differently though. (Probably thats also why they often want/need space away). Men (and women) behave better/differently when they think their peers/those around will judge bad behaviour for sure.

well many men clearly never pass up the chance to mansplain or indicate that there are "girl jobs" and "boy jobs".

But set up shelters? organisations to help male victims of violence? not so much.
I do see a bit more willingness to join in with schemes to help male youth not go off the right track - but that is more about patting themselves on the back than putting any real effort in.

I wonder if this is because a lot of the traditionally male groups now allow girls?
and because we see a lot of push back against those that would open male only gyms or groups to be open to both sexes?

As for what needs to be done about male on male violence, you would have to breakdown not only societal issues but also cultures where males are seen as dominant.

There are also a huge amount of issues surrounding social media and the access to troubling content.

Yes! I’ve a couple of ‘bad lad turned good’ on my Facebook and it’s exactly that. They’ve set up a podcast. The toxic girl friends one was interesting.

It doesn’t matter what society does. The male is full of testosterone. This alone causes aggression- as it does in animals.

Create a society that is masculine - outward male violence

Create a society that emasculates men and the aggression is inward and directed at women.

The testosterone doesn’t go away. Labour MP Lloyd Russel is the perfect example of a very very angry emasculated man who despises women

Yes we can try and model good behaviour when boys are tiny - but their physical strength and biological make up will always make them they more dangerous sex

Of course it matters what society does.
When society is happy for violence in children to be "just a phase", "boys will be boys", "my son wouldn't do that", "its not his fault because".
Society needs to stop the culture of praising "stars" and "Celebrities" for their poor behaviour,
We need to somehow stop the tribal nature of some sports that leads to hooliganism.

We need to stop making excuses like "the male is full of testosterone" when many males get through life without being violent.

And we don't just need female board members and CEOs as has been mentioned, we need female brickies, plumbers, sewage workers etc. in order to stop this male/female masculine/feminine job rubbish that is so prevalent in society and cultures.

I’ve brought up three sons and have always encouraged them to walk away. One of my sons did intervene once when he tried to stop a man hitting a woman on a night out, he didn’t know them, the woman then turned on my son and attacked him.

so many people have that same story - and yet i've never seen it when my DH has intervened when he's seen male on female violence.

I recall reading a very tragic case when the male who intervened was badly beaten by both. It can be risky and personally I’d not get involved other than to call the police.

One of my former friends from school had a very violent husband she kept going back to and a mutual friend intervened and she was choked and strangled at length to the extent she was lifted off her feet by her neck.

My motto is in these cases to seek help from the authorities.

I've called the police on neighbour's before and once when I saw an attack (male on female) on the street. I am not any use in a fight anyway, but aside from that in theory at least calling the police means there is at least a record of it, if its still ongoing they are witnesses to it. I think its reasonable to advise men to do the same where possible if there is a risk from intervening. Although sometimes, just other people going over will stop the violence (especially if its more than one person). Where there is immediate risk to life I think everyone has a duty to intervene if at all possible (even if its just shouting I can see you/I'm calling the police from across the road.) The idea of just walking on by someone being attacked is not OK.