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Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

544 replies

ByPeachJoker · 04/06/2024 23:17

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

OP posts:
Girlofyourdreams · 05/06/2024 17:57

Our state primary is begging for families to take up places. More children = more funding. It's a lovely school filled with wonderful teachers. It just needs money.

Plenty of very undersubscribed secondary schools too.

If people moved away from private it would force governments hand with funding them better.

maybein2022 · 05/06/2024 17:59

Haven’t RTFT but this is my take. (Have children in private secondary but they went to state primary and I taught in the state primary system).

The education system as a whole is screwed. Massive teacher recruitment crisis. Schools are underfunded. Behaviour is a problem. Loads of children with SEN being really let down, over and over again.

Whatever you do, whether you get rid of private schools entirely, put VAT on the fees, get rid of grammar schools, make your school allocation purely a ballot, whatever. It will NEVER be equal for so many reasons. The ideal scenario, where all schools are amazing for all children and no one pays, is just not going to happen.

This isn’t just true in education. Think about the NHS as well. Postcode lottery and all that.

Many, many children at private school are on bursaries or having help from family members. For many people, having the VAT WILL put those fees out of reach. I read something that said it’s estimated double the number of kids will need to come out of private secondaries and go to state than anticipated.

Kids that do come out of private schools will have more options often than other kids. Resources to move to a ‘better’ area or might already be living in an area near a really good state school. Money for tutors. Money for extra curricular stuff. Etc.

It’s never going to be ‘fair’. 😔 I don’t know what the answer is but I don’t necessarily think putting VAT on is the answer. But nor do I think it’s fair that some children are not getting the education all children should be getting. It’s a complete minefield.

Aladdinzane · 05/06/2024 18:00

"£58 a week per child. So £116 per week for 2 children. An extra £432+ per month. In addition to the 10% rise between Sept 23 and 24, which has already taken place in most schools. You don't think that's a lot of money? "

No, I don't think its a lot of money for someone currently spending just under the median household income on private schooling, which is a luxury.

I think the vast majority of people posting against this here don't WANT to pay, it's not that they CAN'T pay and the vast majority of private school parents ( as bourne out by the data) will be able to pay.

BTW, note the figures I use are Household income, not individual, to get into the top 10% of households (where the vast, vast majority of private school children come from), you need to have 180k.

However, it is well known that people on high incomes often don't consider themselves to be so, and rather think they are average. This might explain some of the analysis on here and the framing the choice to go to private school as one that is made by the financial acumen and piety of the parents.

It isn't.

Foodusername · 05/06/2024 18:05

maybein2022 · 05/06/2024 17:59

Haven’t RTFT but this is my take. (Have children in private secondary but they went to state primary and I taught in the state primary system).

The education system as a whole is screwed. Massive teacher recruitment crisis. Schools are underfunded. Behaviour is a problem. Loads of children with SEN being really let down, over and over again.

Whatever you do, whether you get rid of private schools entirely, put VAT on the fees, get rid of grammar schools, make your school allocation purely a ballot, whatever. It will NEVER be equal for so many reasons. The ideal scenario, where all schools are amazing for all children and no one pays, is just not going to happen.

This isn’t just true in education. Think about the NHS as well. Postcode lottery and all that.

Many, many children at private school are on bursaries or having help from family members. For many people, having the VAT WILL put those fees out of reach. I read something that said it’s estimated double the number of kids will need to come out of private secondaries and go to state than anticipated.

Kids that do come out of private schools will have more options often than other kids. Resources to move to a ‘better’ area or might already be living in an area near a really good state school. Money for tutors. Money for extra curricular stuff. Etc.

It’s never going to be ‘fair’. 😔 I don’t know what the answer is but I don’t necessarily think putting VAT on is the answer. But nor do I think it’s fair that some children are not getting the education all children should be getting. It’s a complete minefield.

We absolutely could make it a more even playing field and make education and healthcare better.

We can’t possibly predict how many kids will come out of private. It’s impossible to predict and will mostly be dependent on how much parents want to prioritise that over other things. Of course there will be lots saying ‘we couldn’t possibly afford it’ but most will be able to.

Teajenny7 · 05/06/2024 18:05

Delatron · 05/06/2024 17:38

I doubt it’s that simple unfortunately. Plus I don’t think the money is all
magically going to go to state schools. It’s just going to put pressure on an already over burdened education system.

Just be careful what you wish for. Resources are already stretched thinly. So we really want a huge influx of pupils in to this system?

When my children were little I taught in a local Prep. School. I was the only staff member with a degree, PGCE, and Qualified Teacher Status.
We had been working abroad and I wanted to work part time close to home.
I was delighted to get back into the State sector when I left.

Ozanj · 05/06/2024 18:06

Aladdinzane · 05/06/2024 18:00

"£58 a week per child. So £116 per week for 2 children. An extra £432+ per month. In addition to the 10% rise between Sept 23 and 24, which has already taken place in most schools. You don't think that's a lot of money? "

No, I don't think its a lot of money for someone currently spending just under the median household income on private schooling, which is a luxury.

I think the vast majority of people posting against this here don't WANT to pay, it's not that they CAN'T pay and the vast majority of private school parents ( as bourne out by the data) will be able to pay.

BTW, note the figures I use are Household income, not individual, to get into the top 10% of households (where the vast, vast majority of private school children come from), you need to have 180k.

However, it is well known that people on high incomes often don't consider themselves to be so, and rather think they are average. This might explain some of the analysis on here and the framing the choice to go to private school as one that is made by the financial acumen and piety of the parents.

It isn't.

Wrong.

The top 10% of income is any household that earns the equiv above £59,200 each. At DS private school these parents are mostly NHS staff.

Delatron · 05/06/2024 18:07

Foodusername · 05/06/2024 17:47

It’s hyperbole that ‘huge’ numbers will leave. We have no idea how many. And of course any survey asking at the moment parents will say they are thinking of leaving to paint the bleakest picture. The reality is that the vast majority will absorb the cost somehow IF private education is a priority.

But going forward? It will factor in the decision making for many. It’s a huge increase. Especially when you have more than one child.

MyNameIsFine · 05/06/2024 18:10

Ozanj · 05/06/2024 18:06

Wrong.

The top 10% of income is any household that earns the equiv above £59,200 each. At DS private school these parents are mostly NHS staff.

You're wasting your time. These threads all go the same way:
'A lot of people won't be able to afford it'
'Yes they can. If they can afford the massive fees, they can afford the extra 20%'
'That doesn't logically follow'
'We don't believe you. And my kids went to state school and got into Oxford. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah'

Aladdinzane · 05/06/2024 18:11

"Many, many children at private school are on bursaries"

16 percent actually, not many at all, many of these are actually siblings also given discounts only 1% of the entire private school population get a full free ride, the average bursary is 35% of the fee and this is distorted by those who get a full ride, so its significantly less. In fact, the UCL study found that 4/5 children who were being privately educated whose houseolds were not in the top 10% of incomes, did not recieve any financial help.

" read something that said it’s estimated double the number of kids will need to come out of private secondaries and go to state than anticipated." This was a study that was published at the request of the Private schools association.

Foodusername · 05/06/2024 18:13

Aladdinzane · 05/06/2024 18:11

"Many, many children at private school are on bursaries"

16 percent actually, not many at all, many of these are actually siblings also given discounts only 1% of the entire private school population get a full free ride, the average bursary is 35% of the fee and this is distorted by those who get a full ride, so its significantly less. In fact, the UCL study found that 4/5 children who were being privately educated whose houseolds were not in the top 10% of incomes, did not recieve any financial help.

" read something that said it’s estimated double the number of kids will need to come out of private secondaries and go to state than anticipated." This was a study that was published at the request of the Private schools association.

And bursaries are usually funded from a separate pot. Not fees.

maybein2022 · 05/06/2024 18:13

Foodusername · 05/06/2024 18:05

We absolutely could make it a more even playing field and make education and healthcare better.

We can’t possibly predict how many kids will come out of private. It’s impossible to predict and will mostly be dependent on how much parents want to prioritise that over other things. Of course there will be lots saying ‘we couldn’t possibly afford it’ but most will be able to.

Yes absolutely, and it SHOULD be a more even playing field- but I don’t necessarily believe that VAT on private schools fees is the way to do it. And I guess my point is that with VAT or not, there will ALWAYS be ‘better’ state schools, just like there are better hospitals/trusts, better police forces etc.

Foodusername · 05/06/2024 18:13

maybein2022 · 05/06/2024 18:13

Yes absolutely, and it SHOULD be a more even playing field- but I don’t necessarily believe that VAT on private schools fees is the way to do it. And I guess my point is that with VAT or not, there will ALWAYS be ‘better’ state schools, just like there are better hospitals/trusts, better police forces etc.

VAT isn’t the answer. It is however fairer.

Janedoe82 · 05/06/2024 18:13

mycatisanarcissist · 05/06/2024 16:50

Are people on here telling mothers to take in ironing and do online surveys so their kids can go to private school?

We are taking the piss at the ridiculousness of it!

Aladdinzane · 05/06/2024 18:14

"Wrong.

The top 10% of income is any household that earns the equiv above £59,200 each. At DS private school these parents are mostly NHS staff."

Sorry, I was discussing income deciles not top 10% of earners. Actually according to this data to be in that group you need to have 196k.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/813364/average-gross-income-per-household-uk/

"Mostly NHS staff"

Yeah, yeah, so not represented by the data from UCL study at all? Or are they actually the children of Doctors, who, if they have teenage children could be well into that top income decile?

UK average gross income per household decile 2022 | Statista

Households in the bottom decile in the United Kingdom earned, on average, 14,729 British pounds per year in 2021/22, compared with the top decile which earned 196,638 pounds per year.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/813364/average-gross-income-per-household-uk

GhoulWithADragonTattoo · 05/06/2024 18:18

Harrow is £16,830 per term not year. But you are still correct.

maybein2022 · 05/06/2024 18:20

Okay, so if people believe VAT on private schools is fairer (and maybe it is 🤷‍♀️) does it follow that children who are on a full bursary (or even partial bursary) shouldn’t have a place, because x child the next road down didn’t get one, even though they were as bright? Maybe they didn’t apply. Maybe their parents don’t speak English. Maybe the parents didn’t know such things existed. Is that fair?

Is it ‘fair’ that for the mega wealthy, VAT is just going to be a drop in the ocean?

Is it ‘fair’ that some parents genuinely do sacrifice a lot to send their children to private schools (and I don’t mean not going on holiday or not having a car I mean proper sacrifice) because their child has had the most awful time at state school, suffered from horrendous mental health, been suicidal etc and the move to private (even though their siblings attend state) has helped no end, but they won’t be able to stay if the VAT comes in? (This is not our situation, to be clear).

That said. I do believe that there are families who are claiming not be be able to ‘afford’ it and absolutely can but adjusting their lifestyle, which they don’t want to do.

Foodusername · 05/06/2024 18:27

You can’t make everything perfectly fair but that the direction I want us to travel in. Towards fairness and equality of opportunity. This is a minuscule step in that direction, not a panacea.

Poppypops76 · 05/06/2024 18:28

I don’t understand the vitriol either. Why some people get so worked up about how others spend their money is beyond me. It’s the politics of envy and a ridiculously short sighted policy by Labour as it will only add to the pressure on state schools. I say this as a parent of two children at state school.

Janedoe82 · 05/06/2024 18:30

Poppypops76 · 05/06/2024 18:28

I don’t understand the vitriol either. Why some people get so worked up about how others spend their money is beyond me. It’s the politics of envy and a ridiculously short sighted policy by Labour as it will only add to the pressure on state schools. I say this as a parent of two children at state school.

It has nothing to do with envy- people are annoyed at private school parents expecting further special treatment to further enhance the privilege their children are already getting. And I say that as a private school parent.

Foodusername · 05/06/2024 18:31

Poppypops76 · 05/06/2024 18:28

I don’t understand the vitriol either. Why some people get so worked up about how others spend their money is beyond me. It’s the politics of envy and a ridiculously short sighted policy by Labour as it will only add to the pressure on state schools. I say this as a parent of two children at state school.

I’m not envious. I used PE. I am getting increasingly pissed off with the handwringing and ‘poor me’ attitude of those who are some of the most privileged people in society because they are being asked to pay a tax they should always have been paid. There are people out there with genuine problems.

Tortiemiaw · 05/06/2024 18:31

TorturedPoetsDepartmentAnthology · 05/06/2024 16:46

On MN everyone is both rich enough to afford private education for multiple children while being unfortunate enough to live in the catchment area of a school where murders appear to be happening on a daily basis!

Or the children at private school have SEND that couldn’t possibly be ever met in state school and so the family live in a tent in the park to save money and forage for food.

I have no issue with private education but making out like you’ve sacrificed sooooooo much is embarrassing. Admit you can afford it and therefore, you have it.

I went to both private and state school. My parents didn’t make excuses. They told me they could afford it and they told me I was very lucky.

People acting like they have no choice but to use private school is ridiculous. What do you think those who cannot afford it do?!

All of this. And whatever us thickos who don't CARE about our children say and explain, we will still be shouted down with a billion excuses as to why state schools are not right for the children of 'others', why there shouldn't be VAT because it's Not A Luxury, a Necessity and we just don't understand. It's very tiring.
Our youngest took the entrance exam for a very well respected and hard to get into school near us when she was 8. We didn't plan this, her teachers urged us to do it it as she was apparently very clever. She passed and we were offered a bursary. Unfortunately, however we juggled, we couldn't afford the rest. She didn't go. She went to the local <whispers> state primary, then the state secondary and is now doing her A levels at the best state VI form in the country, alongside vast numbers of the children who did go to that private school. It's quite funny really, we saved thousands for her to end up getting better results than those who did go.

Oh and she managed to not turn feral and rude, despite the other belief and reason given why paid for education is essential,, that only private school kids have impeccable manners and drip with confidence.
Send your kids if you must but do it quietly eh?

Foodusername · 05/06/2024 18:31

Janedoe82 · 05/06/2024 18:30

It has nothing to do with envy- people are annoyed at private school parents expecting further special treatment to further enhance the privilege their children are already getting. And I say that as a private school parent.

Oh you said it far better than me. Absolutely!!

maybein2022 · 05/06/2024 18:33

Tortiemiaw · 05/06/2024 18:31

All of this. And whatever us thickos who don't CARE about our children say and explain, we will still be shouted down with a billion excuses as to why state schools are not right for the children of 'others', why there shouldn't be VAT because it's Not A Luxury, a Necessity and we just don't understand. It's very tiring.
Our youngest took the entrance exam for a very well respected and hard to get into school near us when she was 8. We didn't plan this, her teachers urged us to do it it as she was apparently very clever. She passed and we were offered a bursary. Unfortunately, however we juggled, we couldn't afford the rest. She didn't go. She went to the local <whispers> state primary, then the state secondary and is now doing her A levels at the best state VI form in the country, alongside vast numbers of the children who did go to that private school. It's quite funny really, we saved thousands for her to end up getting better results than those who did go.

Oh and she managed to not turn feral and rude, despite the other belief and reason given why paid for education is essential,, that only private school kids have impeccable manners and drip with confidence.
Send your kids if you must but do it quietly eh?

But can you not see that your daughter has a huge advantage by going to the best state sixth form in the country?! How did she get in… Is it selective?!

NewASDMum · 05/06/2024 18:40

Not read anything past the OP but there is so much to consider re legalities that the VAT cannot be implemented now or anytime soon. Current High school parents won’t be affected by this. Primary school may be but have time to enroll their kids in a state school. If not, they know they may be subjected to VAT and have no reasonable argument to say they are adversely affected/didn’t know.

TheaBrandt · 05/06/2024 18:45

Pretty much all state 6th forms are selective you need minimum GCSE results to get in. Lots of private school pupils come to ours in the 6 th form.