How do you think schools should punish children?

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

A lot of ‘school refusal’ and problems in education is associated with poor behaviour from other pupils on here. Yet whenever a poster’s child is reprimanded they seem outraged and feel the teacher is picking on their DC for no reason. They often think the (perfectly reasonable sounding) punishment is too harsh, or their child should’ve had more warnings.

So I’m interested in how you think schools should actually discipline pupils, taking into account this also means your own DC?

I highly doubt it. I feel issues these days are due to the high, fast paced expectations of the curriculum, the expectation to sit and a huge lack of resources. As you've said, the NT children that cause issues likely come from abusive homes. People say 'back in the day'. My Dad remembers corporal punishment but he also remembers naps in infants school, cross country, a lower expectation of education, had a stay at home Mum ready with his tea after school ect.

I would be fine with my child's classroom teacher administering a swat with a ruler, if they are being disrespectful, disobedient and disruptive.

Any teacher prepared to use violence as a form of behaviour management shouldn’t be in teaching.

I don't think discipline is the only problem. I think progress 8 has led to a lot of bad behaviour.

Some children thrive in academic subjects, but not all. It used to be a child would have a free choice of subjects other than maths or English, as long as you were capable of achieving the qualification which did not have to be at level 2 or be a GCSE.

A child who loves practical subjects might only get 1 hour a week doing something they actually enjoy.

I'm old enough to remember the ruler at school. Some teachers used it a lot, some never and it had nothing to do with the behaviour of the child/ren.

Also let teachers teach and use the strategies that work for certain pupils.

I changed a child from disruptive to being a good student simply by giving her something to do with her hands - a cheap padlock with buttons on it. This was before fidget toys were a thing.

As a teacher, this is how I see it.

I work in a secondary school in a deprived area. We have a wide range of students from different backgrounds.

We have a specific email every week about students that have 'special considerations' due to additional needs. Many of these students, we are told, cannot be sanctioned for not following the rules e.g. talking, missed homework. We are meant to refer to Learning Support, but nothing is done, so the child receives no consequences.

The British education system is rubbish. We teach students to pass exams and there is no fun in learning - so much of my subject is interesting, but it's not on the curriculum/exam spec, so I can't teach it.

As for students who have 'unmet/unnoticed needs' - if they are violent and affecting the majority of the class, they have to go. It's unfair on the other students who are in the room, and the staff member who is trying to deal with the issues. It doesn't help that parents don't parent their child - I had a parent ask me to tell their daughter to go to bed at a reasonable time because she had tried and her daughter had 'been nasty' to her!

You then have the parents who always believe their child over you as a professional. 9 times out of 10, SLT bow to the parent for an easy life (for them). It then makes the teacher's life difficult as they have been undermined for the rest of that child's academic career.

Just my thoughts, as someone in the sector.

Sorry, I didn’t understand what your mistake was, for which you were punished? (I didn’t go to British school).

My message is that any punishment is not effective. (On the contrary, it leads to more complex problems). It is more effective to help the student with his mistake instead of punishing them.

I think this is often overlooked. Just because you have SEN or are ND doesn't meanyou can't be naughty or play the system.
They too, can bully others, often other children who have additional needs.
The breakaway type pass is often misused.
They time it with their friends in different classes to leave at a prearranged time. Rather than go to the chill out room or to the support room they go walkabout the school.

A big problem in some Secondary Schools is internal truancy.

This makes it even more difficult for vulnerable pupil who are trying their hardest. It is a bit pointless letting a vulnerable or bullied child out of lesson early for their safety to get in the lunch queue or toilet only to be terrified of those who wander around bored looking for some mischief.

SLT and parents have to acknowledge this.

Yes it is like that

That sounds really awful.
Bumping into marauding bullies while trying to gain a place of safety.

No. Not ever.

@Goneroundthetwist

Where I live it is not illegal to smack children. I don't like it, but I think it can be used as a last resort. I'm not a troll. I'm serious.

@Comeoncar

Anyone who behaved that way in the UK today would be breaking the law. I'm just saying we should go back to the old ways, when children were better behaved and thought twice about being disrespectful because they knew real consequences would result.

@Comeoncar

I think naps for young children and cross country are both great. And I am a SAHM. I wish more people were.

I find your views very insular and without any understanding of the actual issues in schools. I cannot see how hitting someone for mis-behaving is going to do anything but teach them smacking people is acceptable. Proper and evidence-based interventions are going to most effective in combination of better inclusion provisions for those that struggle in mainstream.

Or we could have a number of options - grouping all the disruptive children together, regardless of the cause seems counter productive to me.

DS will be going to a specialist autism unit for secondary school, everything there is set up around the needs of autistic students. That has to be better for him than mainstream (though he will have access to mainstream lessons if suitable), or being lumped together with children with a huge range of issues.

More specialised options seems the way to go to me. And better diagnosis and access to support, obviously. The only reason we are where we are now is the huge amount of work DS mainstream primary school put into getting him assessed sooner.

It is awful but the children doing this mostly have 'passes' for their needs and are considered vulnerable too.
I was trying to point out that some pupils can be naughty or bullies despite being SEN, ND or NT. Yet, some parents don't want to accept it.

Many know how to play the system.

But how about you?
Would you like to get a swat with a ruler by your boss if he thinks that you are not talking to him respectfully enough or are disturbing someone?

What a silly comparison. Children are not adults. There are plenty of things that parents do to children that would be unthinkable if applied to an adult.

Yes, you are right. And it's awful. If adults put themselves in children's shoes, they would be less likely to make them unhappy.

It's about
«There are plenty of things that parents do to children that would be unthinkable if applied to an adult«

If you start authorising strangers to hit your child, what control do you have? What if your child gets hit when they weren't misbehaving? What if the teacher is just doing it out of sadism? What if the swat with a ruler becomes two swats, what if the swat becomes a blow? The plain fact is that you are authorising people to assault your child, and you are teaching your child that violence is OK.

When we had corporal punishment prevously, it achieved nothing in terms of discipline. Why would that change now?

@SweatyLama

Why can't children be unhappy some of the time, it's life

Of course. Why should parents make their child unhappy?

It is justified to stop playing on the roadway because it is not safe. But in most cases, adults resort to methods that they would not use with adults, but use with children. For example, punishments. This is a common tool among parents, carrying wrong messages, such as “if you don’t have power you can be offended.”

The challenging behaviour from these children in secondary school leaves them surely unable to function properly in the adult world when they leave school.

What place in society will these people have if they have never been punished for bad behaviour? What do parents of these children think will happen in 3-4 years time when they don't have a school to send them to?

Do you really think you would have become a criminal if you weren't punished as a child?