How do you think schools should punish children?

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

A lot of ‘school refusal’ and problems in education is associated with poor behaviour from other pupils on here. Yet whenever a poster’s child is reprimanded they seem outraged and feel the teacher is picking on their DC for no reason. They often think the (perfectly reasonable sounding) punishment is too harsh, or their child should’ve had more warnings.

So I’m interested in how you think schools should actually discipline pupils, taking into account this also means your own DC?

Never. It would be boxing and football and such all seen as rewarding poor behaviour by everyone else.

I'd be fine with it. Much better than sitting in silence in a room.

They should ɓe able. To perm exclude more easily

As an English teacher, I’m appalled that this is being used as a punishment!

And in the real world…….

it is very very difficult to permanently exclude a child. If they have any SEN or even potential SEN, you will be said to not be meeting their needs and the exclusion will not be upheld.

In my teaching career (15+ years) I can probably count on one hand the number of permanent exclusions I have seen. The school have to have tried everything to have met the child’s needs before they can be permanently excluded. Many parents are in denial about their child’s SEN needs which can contribute to their behaviour, but without the parents agreement, they cannot be assessed.

Perhaps if they started off the day with a good run round, they'd actually be calmer and have a better mental state for spending the day in lessons....?

I think dd's school should be much quicker to nip things in the bud. There's so much low level stuff- pushing, threatening, insults, kicking balls hard in enclosed spaces- that it's impossible to escape from. They had a mile a day for a while in primary and I'd like to see something like that to help kids who have excess energy along with better school meals. But I'd also like a bit more of a no bullshit approach to create a better environment for learning and stopping stuff escalating.
And I'm happy for dd to face the consequences of her actions as long as it's not excessive

Make school interesting and somewhere kids want to be. Change the absolutely dreadful curriculum and allow teachers some leeway to teach rather than make the students rote learn boring crap on a curriculum which would have me dropping out too. My DC are well-behaved but DS is absolutely bored to tears by the demands of GCSE passing. Almost all thinking is banned while students are made to learn standard responses, say the right keywords (don't get the answer right if you use the wrong terms!) and get marks for how many tenses they use rather whether they say something interesting.

Don't get me wrong, there's room for accuracy in some subjects, but the fun has gone out of school even for the bright kids. Many kids with alternative needs are just not fitting into the system and teachers are not allowed to try alternative methods. Schools are slammed if they don't have enough GCSE passes, regardless of whether they are socially successful. In school, success is measured in a way which makes many children feel like failures on a regular basis (from SATS onwards). Who wouldn't want to be excluded in this case? I would (and I was a good kid).

That said, I do understand the problem of disruption etc. My DCs' school is no worse than mine as far as disruption, violence and drugs goes (as mine was bad), but the teachers in my school were allowed to preempt exclusion by running alternative provision and take out the main offenders. (Like a PRU, but in-school.) The teachers took turns in trying to teach them something (being in the alternative group wasn't regarded as punishment) and on the whole it was quite successful, freeing the classes up a bit and letting the other kids learn. Copying lines or staring into space in isolation is totally soul-destroying and pointless. Either get the kids interested in something or have them learn something vocational and leave at 16 (obviously, both might apply here - there's nothing wrong with learning something vocational).

Exactly! Why does everyone understand this except the policy makers (who have probably never even met a school pupil or spoken to a teacher).

But the question OP asked was how can behaviour be improved, and the answer is make it easier to exclude these children, not keeping on making excuses why these children need to be kept in mainstream schooling when ur is failing them and each and every other person in the school.

Much better sport provision would help too. That was something that a lot of the 'disruptive' kids did really well at in my school. (Kids would turn up because of the sport and often make it onto the team.) The sport is almost non-existent in schools locally now.

Also a brilliant way to make kids hate English

Totally agree kids need a load more exercise outside, every year should be doing daily mile.

My issue is that there is a fine line between punishing and shaming.

A child in my DC's class is bullying her - name calling, he's pushed her over on front me at pick up. They just say "oh don't do that".
If it was up to me he'd be kept well away from her, sat at the teachers desk or in the corridor etc, kept in at playtime but that's just not acceptable now. But he is getting away with it with occasional trips out of class to chat to the headteacher in a comfy office!

Ok. How do you fix the child acting out because of issues at home? The child whose parents have taught them that swearing or shouting is the initial response? The deregulated child who needs adhd meds that they can’t access because of 10year plus NHS waiting lists? The child who acts out at school because they haven’t been given appropriate coping mechanisms at home? The child who walks out, slamming a door because of something awful that happened at home?

I’m an experienced teacher but I know that simply silencing children doesn’t work. Behaviour doesn’t improve. More children need support today than can be given. More parents need support today than can be given. Silent rooms in which students copy from textbooks just exacerbate the problems. Smaller classes. Better and quicker access to mental health support. Help for parents. This is what will ‘fix’ these issues.

@MigGirl

I could think of children in my children's classes who would refuse to even go there or sit studying. But good if it works!

I think a lot of kids also have a screen addiction so whilst they're in lessons, they are actually in withdrawal. Unfortunately schools cannot change this and governments need to catch up and realise the damage that's being done to the brains of children

The punishment should vary by age and by offence.
There also needs to be realistic and clear expectations by the school, linked to child development - my 7 year old daughter is frequently being told off for fidgeting, after 90 mins of trying to focus with no break. How many adults can sit absolutely still for that long - very few.

But the sanctions for poor behaviour need to be clearly enforced and fair across all children. Another child in my daughters class is allowed to wander round the classroom whenever they wish due to having additional needs, and pick up and rip other children's work, take their stationery, pull their hair etc, with no sanctions. Children are witnessing this, and thinking 'why should I sit still' 'why is ok for my hard work to be destroyed'.

There needs to be much better SEN provision for those with lower level needs, the push for inclusion at any cost is not helpful.

I would love it if it were easier to exclude children. But the reality is, it won’t happen. The data is that children who are from low income families or have SEN are disproportionately excluded from school. Children excluded from school are also more likely to end up in prison.
So to try to prevent this, and give these pupils a chance, schools have to demonstrate that they have done everything possible to help the child. This means that it is very hard to exclude them.

It is incredibly frustrating to have lessons disrupted by 1 or 2 pupils that don’t behave. However, when you get to know these children (I often do a 1:1 with them), they do all have their own stories. Some are so academically weak it’s easier to play up than have everyone realise that they can’t read or write. Some have watched their mum get beaten up, or a family member sent to prison.

btw I don’t have the answers, but once these children are excluded, it changes their life path forever.

Ds’s school has no detention policy, and teachers encouraged to run a lunchtime or after school club/activity. Same amount of time as they’d have to spend supervising detention but there are safe places to spend lunch, opportunities to socialise across year groups, teachers get to see students in more relaxed environments, and lots of ways to get involved in the school community and feel valued - all conducive to very low bullying.

Each student is assigned a staff contact that they meet with once a month to discuss progress, goals, wellness, etc. Very easy for worried bystanders to spill the beans if a victim won’t. Teachers have been known to turn up unexpectedly in a secluded spot and catch someone red handed.

Misbehaviour gets marked on homework journal which is co-signed by parents. They’re expected to consider why they acted up, and what might help (sitting away from giddy friends/ getting extra tuition if they’re struggling in class/ seeking support if they’re struggling with home or personal issues) If there are more than a set number they get put on “watch” and teachers keep a closer eye, give more support. Suspension and expulsion are on the books but 3 years in and I’ve never heard of anyone getting that far.

I’m a little concerned about this ‘meeting the needs’ narrative, does it prepare children for adult life to teach them their every discomfort should be mitigated by those around them? Severe special needs notwithstanding obviously.

In the real world I can decide the kind of job I do, if I need physical activity I can chose a physical job, if I struggle with social interaction I can chose a job with little involvement with people. I don’t need to navigate busy corridors, or have a loud bell go off every 40 minutes, I can make my own food and eat it in a quiet space, I can choose to wear clothes that feel comfortable. My colleagues don’t shout at me, my boss doesn’t shout at me or enforce random rules, I don’t need their permission to take my jacket off if I’m too hot.

If we’re going to compel children to go to school, we need to accept that that environment will actively undermine their wellbeing and their behaviour will tell the story. We also need to stop pretending that school remotely prepares children for “real life”.

Here is a thread with people crying out for harsh punishments yet on other threads people are crying at what an outrage tough discipline schools are because their darling got detention for not tucking in their shirt!

Mopping floors, cleaning toilets, doing dishes would be better punishment than push ups etc.

What about children who are aggressive and lash out due to ASD and becoming deregulated-for whatever reason. Too many children in the class, not enough staff, too much noise, too much pressure etc etc

What about when the parents want mainstream but the child clearly can’t cope? What about if the parents want special hug there are no spaces?

Children are often not violent/aggressive for no reason, but what if that reason can’t be solved?

Can you? Because most on here don’t seem to enjoy their job, or are unemployed because they can’t find something that suits them. And you can’t confuse a child’s mentality with an adults and the different approach that requires.

I just feel the ‘meeting needs’ thing is a fallacy. Nobody is entitled to ‘have their needs met’ as an adult, the state provides a basic standard of living then it’s up to us to build our lives from that point onwards.

I think a bit like with parenting it's better to have fewer but well enforced rules than to make a big deal over every little thing. Why even try to behave if you're going to be punished for your shirt accidentally becoming untucked or because your eyes aren't constantly following the teacher? Might as well let loose and have some fun if you end up in the isolation room anyway.

What nonsense to expel a 7 year old from school for violent behaviour.

Where do you think those behaviours came from in the first place?

Yep - all together now - an abusive/ violent home life.

So you're going to expel a 7 year old from school, and instead of going into a place with other responsible adults, they sit at home, surrounded by further neglect, abuse and violence.

How is that going to lead anywhere positive?

How does expulsion solve any kind of societal problem or help that vulnerable 7 year old?