How do you think schools should punish children?

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

A lot of ‘school refusal’ and problems in education is associated with poor behaviour from other pupils on here. Yet whenever a poster’s child is reprimanded they seem outraged and feel the teacher is picking on their DC for no reason. They often think the (perfectly reasonable sounding) punishment is too harsh, or their child should’ve had more warnings.

So I’m interested in how you think schools should actually discipline pupils, taking into account this also means your own DC?

@TeenDivided Absolutely I get this is different. I’m trying to say that a level of anxiety will be experienced by every child and adult, and that is normal and okay.

I think doing away with ridiculous sanctions for very minor indiscretions that then leads to escalating behaviour is a good start - forgetting a pen/ having the wrong colour socks etc. should not lead to isolation/ detention.

But also, have proper punishments for genuinely bad behaviour. Bullying, violence, deliberate vandalism and class disruption. Have detentions, have suspensions, exclude if needed.

It seems that many places take either a super strict or super lax approach. Be consistent. Be fair.

I think doing away with ridiculous sanctions for very minor indiscretions that then leads to escalating behaviour is a good start - forgetting a pen/ having the wrong colour socks etc. should not lead to isolation/ detention.

I agree, if a child ends up in detention because they forgot their pen (normal human behaviour), what happens when the verbally abuse someone - detention again? So being abusive and forgetting your pen carry the same weight.

Schools have limited sanctions available to them, they need to make it a big deal to have detention etc rather than it being an every day occurrence if someone wears the wrong colour of socks because they have few ways of escalating sanctions for behaviour that actually matters, as opposed to just being annoying.

OH MY GOODNESS IF ONLY I'D KNOWN. I would never have given my DS, who has severe ADHD, processed baby food and stuck him in front of a tablet aged 9 months. And I would have told him it's just FINE to hit his teacher. And we would have stayed home with him instead of putting him in nursery from 6 weeks!
Oh wait. I didn't. We did babyled weaning and he wouldn't even concentrate on a screen till he was about 3. And funnily enough he knows, and is told often enough not to make it a fun routine, not to hit people. And I work part time and DH is retired.
Phew!

Code of conduct and school-parent contract, posted on website both to be signed by parent/carer before child is admitted. 1st offence warning, 2nd offence fine the parents, 3rd offence suspension, subject to appeal depending on offence, 4th offence permanent exclusion. Had enough of bleeding-heart tolerance.

This is it. There are limited options for punishment, so use them for things that justify punishment.

Out of interest, are lunch time litter picks still a thing? This was sort of a low level detention option we got for some thing back in the olden days.

Why bother having children at all if others are expected to care for them for the majority of the day? Let's develop your idea, why do they have to go home to sleep, the school should provide beds. When would you expect parents, the ones who chose to have these children, to have any contact?

Incorporating that kind of thing in the day might prevent some of the bad behaviour, and would be good for all of the kids really. They are expected to sit too much and are not as active as kids should be.

I think there may be a causation correlation issue here.

These kids have problems that cause many to be excluded, and cause them to have problems in the adult world.

Is there any evidence that just keeping them in school, while they continue to be a problem, does anything to change their ultimate fate? I suspect not. I think the kids being disruptive, bullying, etc, will still go on to be more likely to have adult problems, even if they are doing those things in school.

Plus they've now fucked over a lot of other children.

This certainly works at my DS' school. Every child runs a daily mile, then for the DC that need it they do a sensory circuit in a morning to prepare them for learning. If my DS becomes dysregulated through the day, he often runs extra laps which I agree is what he needs. Not as a 'punishment' but more as a 'let's run some laps and have a breather'.

Sorry, that was in reply to tempesttost.

You don’t know exactly what the bully’s parents thought, much less what kind of relationship he had with his parents at home behind closed doors.

No it doesn't.
When I was in school I had multiple lunchtime detentions for chatting in class. I still chatted in class.

But I completely agree with you that exclusion and especially suspension is not the way forward. A lot of teens who I know who have been suspended are not punished but spend the days off playing xbox. My DS is only about to join senior school but if he was ever suspended the xbox would be hidden before his arse got home.

But not all pupils have families who will see school punishment as punishment which is why it should be regulated by the school as much as possible.

When I was at school I only remember 1 suspension but lots of lunchtime, after school and Saturday detentions. Also work tasks like cleaning chewing gum off the playground or sweeping the assembly hall, cataloguing the library, etc.

You do realise that SEN children can in fact choose to mess around or bully other kids too?

I'm curious what value you think the kids described in that post are getting from the class, even if they have one on one care? It seems like it's basically a holding tank for probably two of them.

But their presence will make a difference to the class they are going to demand a lot of time and resources.

I agree as the mother of a medical SEN child, who was so molly coddled by his school that he began to think he was Lord emperor and began telling everyone he met he was DISABLED - a term we don't use for him at home. He absolutely used his SEN as an excuse to get better treatment from his classmates, at one point in p3 was running a biscuit hussle because he had half the class feeling sorry for him.

Also as the aunt of two SEN DN with autism and ADHD I will admit they have caused their fair share of trouble at school. One abusing his free pass to the breakaway room and one fighting but not getting into trouble for it (even though he admitted to me, not his parents, he started it)

They are only 3 of the stories about them.

In fact I had DS at his senior school today to meet with senco and was practically begging them for less intervention, eg they were going to meet him off the bus, provide a breakout room, let him into the dining hall early. DS has a purely medical need and I know as an 11 year old this "power" will go to his head so said thank you but no.

Sorry I was replying to Dramatic

@Comeoncar

Of course not disabled children. Never said that but I suppose I wasn't explicit. Yes, I'm fine with it for neurotypical children. A lot less bad behavior occurred in schools when corporal punishment was in place at home and school alike.

@Goneroundthetwist

No one said anything about beating. A sharp smack across the palm with a ruler- no lasting physical damage, but a healthy dose of shame and a reminder to think twice before trying that behavior again.

Also, parents meet needs, teachers teach and need to maintain discipline to do so. In my opinion, since people stopped physically disciplining their children, (not beating them, there is a difference between a smack on the bottom in a controlled way, administered without anger, and abuse) the behavior of children in this country has gone down the toilet. Look around you and you'll see this is so.

I'm not saying physical discipline is the only way to discipline, but I'm fine with it being implemented in a controlled way. Not that it would ever happen in the UK.

@Scruffily

I would be fine with my child's classroom teacher administering a swat with a ruler, if they are being disrespectful, disobedient and disruptive.

And the fact that I'm losing count of the number of people who have 'thanked' my original comment tells me others feel the same.

Whatever we are doing now isn't working, schools are overrun with little brats and a lot of parents can't be bothered to do their jobs. So bring back corporal punishment, I say.

Yes, let’s smack those children with additional needs and those from likely neglectful homes that are already being beaten and abused.

The real problem is that these children are in inappropriate mainstream classes where their needs are not being met in the name of “inclusion”. This does not help them or the mainstream pupils trying to learn.

If schools, social services and health services were properly funded these issues would likely rarely exist.

So, instead of beating the children with a ruler perhaps it would be better to shout about the wider issues and address them instead.

I would guess you are a troll and so I am not going to waste any more of my time replying to you. If you are not, then you are inciting child abuse. Smacking is illegal.

Start by not giving them rewards for bullying children ... that's what happens at DCs primary school.

Thank goodness for no more of the tawse from years ago in schools, used to be meted out as punishment on pupils routinely. Awful.

Hands are tied.

The bottom line is that it is morally wrong to exclude the most vulnerable children, who have been rejected, abused, neglected, failed by caregivers etc etc and for whom school is potentially the only place they experience acceptance and a sense of safety. Where do proponents of exclusion suggest that these young people go and is it ok to write them off, or, as a society, should we keep trying for such children and young people as long as possible?

However, it's also bottom line morally wrong that children without these difficulties are repeatedly exposed to the trauma responses of other young people, which are often distressing, almost always disruptive to learning and sometimes really frightening. I can quite understand that, when it comes to our children, there are some people feeling that enough is enough and that the wellbeing of their own child is all that matters. I feel the same about my own children. The problem is that we live in a society which has to cater for everyone, most of all for children. State schools are for all children.

I taught in schools for 14 years until I left last year to be at home with my toddler. I have seen both sides of the issues in schools, as a parent and as a teacher. As a result, amongst other dissatisfactions with the school system, I have considered both private school and home education for my youngest child. We'll be going with the latter in the first instance.

That's very sad that so many people thanked you. It is child abuse as defined in law, even if Mumsnet think it is OK. Anyone who thinks this way should not have unsupervised access to children.

Morals aside, would physical punishment in the classroom actually help? I imagine a lot of these troubled young people are exposed to worse violence anyway.