How do you think schools should punish children?

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

A lot of ‘school refusal’ and problems in education is associated with poor behaviour from other pupils on here. Yet whenever a poster’s child is reprimanded they seem outraged and feel the teacher is picking on their DC for no reason. They often think the (perfectly reasonable sounding) punishment is too harsh, or their child should’ve had more warnings.

So I’m interested in how you think schools should actually discipline pupils, taking into account this also means your own DC?

OP has started many threads now where it is very clear that she has a real issue with ND children. It is her issue, that she needs genuine help with. If she attacked physically disabled children in the same way, she would be banned from posting.

Unfortunately for you, the law says that all children must be in full time education. Sending them home every time the teacher can't control them is hardly the way to comply with the law.

And actually, it doesn't help other children or anyone if we choose to build up a large cohort of uneducated, disaffected children who grown into adults who can't earn a living, can't contribute to society, and probably mostly end up resorting to crime.

FFS. It would be hard to find a better example of how to tell the world you know nothing about mental health difficulties in schoolchildren without saying you know nothing about mental health difficulties.

You’re unrealistic to think that keeping the cohort you describe in mainstream school will result in adults who can earn a living and contribute to society. Sadly that’s not how it works.

Frankly, I'm sceptical. The guidance on use of isolation came out last year and if Ofsted saw this blatant breach in place and condoned it they didn't know their job. So either your school changed its isolation room practice for the duration of their visit - which would not surprise me - or Ofsted hasn't been in since the guidance changed.

Perhaps your school doesn't actually know about the current guidance?

It would be how it works if mainstream schools were adequately funded and teacher training properly covered SEN. I know they aren't adequately funded and teachers aren't adequately trained, but it cannot be an answer to government failings to fail one cohort of children as thoroughly as you suggest should be happening.

All these complaints about 'disruptive' and violent kids messing up the education system are somewhat at odds with the contempt for private schooling that's usually shown on here. 🤔

@Stealthmodemama @OhmygodDont not the point of this thread but solidarity on the nit front. We’re onto our 7th class outbreak this year. There is clearly a superspreader and that poor child must be spending a lot of time feeling horribly uncomfortable. Really sad and a pain for the rest of us (particularly those with SEN and sensory needs who don’t cope well with the treatment)

So what exactly was he excluded for?

Oh FFS, you again and your faux-naivety

You have a 4 year old, and seemingly no experience of child psychology, education or additional support needs. You have no fucking clue, so quit with the goady threads and go do some learning.

@Scruffily

So many NT children don't thrieve these years at school. Often bullied by ND, SEN and entitled children.

It helps the other children (and adults) to whom the seven year old is being violent, and to whom they will continue to be violent as they get older, bigger and stronger. Why should 29 kids be forced to go to school each day in fear of being violently attacked?

@Scruffily

Not as revolting as the way some kid's treat teachers. A little slap on the hand with a ruler would do wonders to deter these brats.

As someone that used to work in schools, I will say that unless parents work with the schools and enforce boundaries and respect, schools don’t have a chance. If parents constantly blame staff and expect them to fix everything there is no chance.

I had a parent once that was mad because “he may walk safely with you by the road, but he doesn’t with me, you haven’t sorted that!”

Children need nurture, boundaries and behaviour modelling to them. This should be every adults responsibility, unfortunately many don’t see it that way.

Yes, let’s beat those kids with unmet needs 🙄

Good ol' lunchtime and after school detentions. If the problem child persists and is making life hell for the other children and the teachers after multiple warnings and meetings with that problem child's detention then exclusion. I don't think it's fair on the other children to have to put up with unruly children.

I found this thread really interesting. Why do children need to be punished at school?

I was educated in the U.K. uniform, detentions, suspensions, the whole lot. My DC are at school in a different country. Their school has no behaviour policy. Detentions and hierarchical punishments do not exist. In my limited experience of DC's schools and those of my friends' DC's, the behaviour is not nearly as bad as what is described on this thread (I accept it might be a case of bad experiences being more vocal).

Thinking about the differences. I have one at primary, one at secondary.
That's the first difference, Yr 6 is aged 11-12 so the children are that bit older.
Expectations are different too. School is not considered to be an extended form of childcare. Children start the summer after their 4th birthday for 4 mornings a week. By the end of that year they go full time - 5 mornings and one afternoon - when they can walk to school unaccompanied.
Timetables increase from year to year until Yr 6 where they have 5 mornings and 3 or 4 afternoons depending on the school.
Lunch break at primary and secondary is 1hour 45minutes and children are expected to return home for lunch.

Grades matter. Neither of my DC have ever had end of year exams. They are marked on work done in class, tests and participation in class. They rarely have homework as our school feels it is unfair that some children have parents who would support their child and some don't. There are legal limits on how much homework can be set.
If their average is not high enough, they repeat the year. DC 1 has done this. (He has SEN and is young for his age, whilst I was initially against it, he is much happier with a younger cohort as socially he is young for his age. Is now 14 and Yr7)
They can repeat twice in their school life.
Their grades from primary decide which secondary level they go into. If their grades at secondary drop, they will be switched to the lower level and vice versa. If they don't do the work, they don't get the grades.

Children with SEN are expected to be educated at their local primary school. There is no choice of school, children go to the closest one so they have friends in the neighbourhood. One of the first trips they do is to go to everyone's house so that each child knows where the others live! At secondary there are more options if mainstream doesn't work out.

Secondary school is very career focussed as opposed to the exam focus I had as a child. Yr5-6 have a go to work with family/relative day and have a week where lessons are focussing on different types of jobs/careers. Yr7 are expected to organise their own taster (shadow?) day I don't even know how to say it, where you go and visit a local company for a day. Their project week will be writing cv's and applications, visiting the careers centre, visiting several local businesses. Yr 8 have one lesson a week devoted to careers development.

I asked DC1 if his secondary has any punishments. He looked at me as if he had no idea what I'm talking about. He is in the lower secondary level i.e. with children who are not academic or who have learning difficulties like he does. He said if someone misbehaves the teacher tells them off. Once a child got sent to the Head.

I think we need to take a long hard look at our education system & others to learn how to improve.

• the UK starts formal education too young. Have children in school but learn through play & structured activities
• smaller primary classes 20 not 30 to give teachers more time with students & ensure that the foundations for education are strong.
• more provision for SEND students who don't thrive in main stream
• behaviour provision, separate to SEND as its a totally different issue & often a reflection of circumstances outside school.

Something does need to be done about wrap around provision ie before/after school that is high quality, consistent and varied. It needs to be run in the school but a separate entity to it and cover all holidays.

This sounds wonderful, but where is the funding for this? There is a generation lying out there too anxious to get out of bed and go to work….

There are children who have genuine problems so I would hope the school and parents actually work together to help the children through the school system

For any other children especially those where the children's parents have their head up their backsides and won't hear anything bad about their 'little darling' exclusion until the 'darling' can return to school and not disrupt others

Very much so. Please do double my tax. I pay £20k to privately educate my ASD child as it was the only way to get them out of daily assaults at state school (nobody has so much as laid a finger on them at private school).

If my tax was doubled and state school was a safe place for my child I’d be financially better off still!

"Ship them off to a referral unit or hell a kind of military school."

A 7 year old? A "hell kind of military school"? For having a violent and abusive family? Yeah, great...

@metellaestinatrio Obviously there need to be alternatives to mainstream school for children who are struggling with challenging behaviour, but these need to be thought through and properly funded.

Simply shouting "expel them!" does not help anyone. This is the process which creates our future criminals, abusers and murderers.

It’s interesting in Scotland. They are clearly following a similar theory that they have in Norwegian prisons where they feel that if they throw vast amounts of money in providing therapy to the prisoners, treating them as valued members of the community, integrating them back into society they cut reoffending rates. And it is proven to work.

and in Scotland they have banned permanent exclusions, and feel that it is better keeping the violent child in the school community. But they only do a half assed job at the reintegration and the whole thing is a mess and children are suffering.

You can’t just take a good idea from overseas, give it 1/10th if the funding and expect it to work.

My child’s school did all they could. The school community police officer did all they could. But as the child is in care they could not move her from my daughters school or class. They could not permanently exclude her. They could not hold her back and let my daughter and her friends get a head start on the walk home. They couldn’t do any of these things. Because the ludicrous SNP-run Scottish government introduced another policy without thinking it through.