Friends child and gender change!

[Namechangeforthis44]

Don't know if this is the right place to post, but just need some input.
Meeting up with a friend soon, whose child has changed gender. I have no issues with that, live and let live.
BUT
Friend has indicated that we not reminisce about kids childhood as this will trigger her child.
As we have moved away, we only see them every few years, so the one thing we do chat about is their childhood memories.
I think it's unreasonable to tell my kids we can't talk about their memories while we meet up with them.
How do I tackle this?

Yes, agree 100%. The only way it affects the other children's mental health is if they're compelled to lie and their freedom of speech - or even natural speech as using wrong sex pronouns isn't easy - is curtailed. Doing either of these things actually falls under the definition of emotional abuse in the statutory safeguarding guidance for schools, Keeping Children Safe in Education. Any school trying to encourage or enforce this is a huge safeguarding red flag.

I think it's much better for any gender questioning child to not have some artificial enforced validation too. That's not what it will be like in the real world. Encouraging a child to think they can only be safe or happy if other people are forced to tell a lie seems pretty unhealthy and not in their best interests.

What do you mean by 'treated like a boy'?

Because if you mean, for example, change in the boys areas, then yes this may negatively impact on their classmates.

The boys are also entitled to their privacy. They shouldn't be expected to pretend one of the girls is a boy.

And that's the crux of it.

It's not about whether a child identifies as something else, it's the compelled speech to enable it and the total disregard for the well being of others around combined with the problem that reality of biology doesn't go away.

If you are trans then you need to acknowledge your past. Saying it's triggering is not acceptable. That's avoidant behaviour which is unhealthy. A parent saying don't talk about the past - given the high prevalence of trauma and/or sexual abuse in this cohort - is a massive red flag.

That's what should be given a wide birth.

It's not the fact someone identifies as trans or has a child who identifies as trans that's problematic. It's the behaviour that accompanies it, which in any other situation, would be completely unacceptable.

Trans identifying kids need to learn that certain topics are not theirs to control. The controlling behaviour by them and their parents is a massive part of the issue. They need to accept the body they have and the past they have and deal with it.

That doesn't mean not accepting someone for who they are. It's rejecting appalling behaviour which isn't acceptable regardless of the reason.

Other people still matter. The world does not revolve around the tantrums of a teenager. If it is that's not parenting. It's not dealing with the the inevitable and the unchangeable. That's just going into denial and failing your kid in the long run.

This is cult behaviour - as a parent you break contact with the cult. You shouldn't join the cult or pander to the cult. Some cult members can not be 'saved' until it dawns on them that they've been misled. This can take years. Being there to catch them when they have that moment is important but you shouldn't close the door to that by affirmation without question either otherwise you firmly become part of the problem.

In fairness, I think there's a wide variety of parental attitudes involved here - from those who are actively encouraging it, to those who aren't but have become boxed in ways that must be very scary if you're in the thick of it.

Granted, this parent sounds like they're more on the former end of the scale, but we don't really know.

You have hope that the regressive authoritarian ideology has truly take root in this "crop" of children?

Any parents that says you must not talk about the past because it's triggering is a MASSIVE red flag.

Have a very long hard think about why.

Parents can be supportive of their child in many different ways if they identify as trans - the line that's crossed is when you tell other parents how their children should behave and what they should and should not say because otherwise their child might have a tantrum you don't want to deal with. That's not ok.

Again think about this in any other situation. Would you go up to another parent and say similar? What do you think the response might well be?

Parents need to prepare their child for the real world. The adult world. The world where it may be fairly fucking obvious what sex you are and no amount of pretending differently is going to help when you come across very well meaning innocent strangers. Or if there is a legitimate reason to refer to sex over gender.

Closing down topics is not ok. It's a massive safeguarding no no. What if the other child wants to talk about the past or something mum has said is off limits? Because they feel they can confide in one of their peers unlike an adult? Talk about making their life harder not easier. The child who had been told they are not allowed to talk about certain things, is then put in an impossible situation too.

The problem is it begs the question, what is THE PARENT trying to hide and suppress? Not the child. Again, I'm going to refer to the high prevalence of trauma and sexual abuse in this cohort. Parental separation in kid who identify as trans is massively disproportional too - it's arguably about seeking a parents' attention. I therefore state that a parent asking for this, is acting in THEIR OWN interests not the child's.

Children should not be pinned into a box like this - it's not protecting them. It's just swapping issues for others and not dealing with the real world. It means if they do wish to disclose difficult issues or memories to others, it's been made harder by the 'well meaning' parent because you have effectively made the difficult thing to talk about into a thing which is then under the umbrella of 'forbidden' or 'off limits'.

The key thing is keeping lines of communication open with a child - not actively trying to isolate them further by doing this.

Ultimately other parents need to respond appropriately to the red flags - not the gender identity issues. If another parent is demonstrating red flag or saying things that may put your child into a situation which is difficult for them, you don't continue to put your children into that situation if you don't have to.

This isn't a school issue. This is one where the OP has a clear choice about whether to continue the friendship or let it fade.

My argument here is the friend does not respect or value the OPs children and she's got a line of red bunting out.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you.

My comment was in response to a previous poster in a more general sense. There are certainly some parents who aren't advocates who are unfortunately caught up in it.

I agree with your assessment that the parent in the OP almost certainly isn't one of them.

This is a huge overreaction. It’s very obvious that she asked her to avoid triggering her own child who has very complex issues going on. She didn’t do it to gaslight the OP’s kids and maybe it’s best the OP doesn’t go because it doesn’t sound like she will be supportive to the mum anyway.

As someone else said, if I’m meeting someone’s new partner for the first time, I don’t spend the evening chatting about their ex that I knew and all the shared times we had. I don’t need to be told not to but if someone did say would you mind not talking loads about the holidays we went on with Bill because it might make Mary a bit uncomfortable, I’d understand and not think the new partner was gaslighting me or rewriting history.

But your example isn't relevant - OP isn't talking about meeting a new person and avoiding an obviously tricky social situation, she's talking about old friends, who share important memories of their children growing up, where one Mum has said not to talk about those memories with her dc. It's not at all the same.

@RedToothBrush makes some excellent points. I have said up thread that if one chooses to be trans you have a tough life ahead. Not talking about the new identity is just daft. Teens don't take much notice.
I also agree with the trauma and sexual element of a significant number of trans presenting DC. Where's the counselling and therapy? Trans ideology is now part of the psychology degree. We hope that services become easier to access.
However we don't know all the facts here and words such as sickening are hate speech. I beg to differ anyone wants this for their child. It is a lonely life.
We have safe guards in place in the UK to stop surgery on under twenty fives. There are six year waits from 18. No medic here would operate on healthy tissue. The chance of being sued is just too high. The problem is the drugs bought over the Internet. That's what we should be talking about. I have seen it first hand. Within a year my dds friend (a tiny size 6, 5'2'') sounds like Willard White. The girl was naive enough to think they were reversible. Bought from America of course.
The OP can see how the day goes or choose not to go.

I agree that being told to expect and request validation from others isn’t healthy.
I’ve also been wondering, considering how many gender questioning children there seemingly have been around in the recent years, what was it like say 30 years ago?
In my own secondary school, I remember a couple of kids who were openly gay, some girls who were geeky, some who just weren’t particularly girly.
There were definitely some gender non-conforming kids around, and hardly anyone seemed to have an issue with that.
But looking at how many kids seem to desperately need validation and affirmation as the opposite sex nowadays I just wonder where were kids like that back then?

@inamarina i was at school in the 1970/80s and I would say two lesbian and one gay in my year. One girl went on to marry another lady the other I don't know. I have employed two MTF in my time. One happy, one not.
I think we were more tolerant. We had lots to fight for so someone else's gender wasn't a big deal.
I was new to this ideology eight years ago. Will it fade? There is some evidence in the Cass report this is happening. Twenty years ago approximately 2000 people in the UK sort gender reassignment. That has now increased ten fold. Mainly ftm. I think we need a firm stance on sex (which my DC agrees with) but compassion and help for gender questioning people. No help available? Their friend the Internet is there and that's where secrecy and coercion lays.

Wasn't going to bite but so far you have accused me and other parents like me as being child abusers and who deserve a prison sentence. Get over yourselves.

Whether you agree or not and clearly you don't, but I consider myself to be a good parent. My child is well looked after. I am helping him to navigate life. Providing support when and where he needs it being physical or mental. Getting him the extra support he needs

I can assure you that I am not part of any cult, I am a boring middle aged woman who never expected to have a child who would feel so uncomfortable in their own body that they can barely get through the day. Do I wish that he was happy as he was, dear God yes. It's awful to see your child so distraught.

Are you seriously telling me that I should be telling him that he is wrong, that I should be dismissing his feelings and to tell him to "get over it".

We spend years nurturing our children and to give them the ability and encouragement to be able to tell us anything and that it is safe to do so. I am proud that he has comfortable enough and that he trusts me enough to be able to talk to me about this.

It's been a huge leap for us to understand and to try to put ourselves in his position having never faced it before but unlike lots of other people, we are prepared to listen. We have questioned him a lot about it as initially we didn't believe it either

If we had failed to listened to him, and support him, it is very likely that he would no longer be with us. I prefer what I have thanks. I am not going to spend the rest of my life living with the guilt that I failed my child because I failed to listen to him when he reached out for help.

In 10 years time, I have no idea whether he will still present as male rather than female, whether he will want to fully transition or whether he will change his mind BUT what I do know is that he will be able to talk to us about anything and that he knows he is loved for who he is.

FWIW, I was just discussing this post with my colleagues, and when I said that I should be in prison for being a child abuser , they burst out laughing and said that I am one of the most supportive people they know and that my kids know they are loved, safe and will be listened to. Bearing in mind they know me and my family and have done for many years, I'll take their opinion over some of the ones on here.

Your child is lucky to have you @Youmeanyouvelostyourkey.

@Youmeanyouvelostyourkey well said.

Nobody picks this journey. 💐

@Youmeanyouvelostyourkey I don't think anyone on here has accused you of being abusive, but it's very clear from the Tavistock records that kids who are confused about their gender are considerably more likely than the general population to have a parent who is a convicted sex offender.

In Hannah Barnes' book 'Time to Think' she notes that one in ten of the children attending the Tavistock had a father or step father who was a sex offender.

Safeguarding children is everyone's responsibility, so RedToothBrush is absolutely right to highlight this, particularly in the context of an OP who is concerned about a parent who is actively trying to force people not to talk about the past.

My memories of school in the 1970s/80s are massively different - there was huge intolerance of homosexuality and relentless bullying of anyone who dared to be gender non-conforming. It is so sad to hear posters still entrenched in those regressive views. My experience, based on my (now adult) children is that school is now a far better and safer place for gay and gender non conforming young people. I find the intolerance of trans people on Mumsnet deeply sad but I don't think it is widespread and certainly not shared by the majority of younger people.

@heathspeedwell

Unfortunately they did hence why I felt compelled to respond.

However, going back to the original post, we asked our friends to respect his wishes and on the whole they have done. We have also had conversations with our child about how there will be occasions where people won't be accommodating be it by choice or unintentionally and he is going to have live with that. We aren't whitewashing his past. He chooses to not look at any pictures then but that is his choice and we aren't going to not talk about him growing up.

We just don't put gender in as part of that conversation. We can talk about holidays or previous schools or his friends etc, we just don't say, oh look you were presenting as a girl then.

I can see the side of the OPs friends in that they will need to deal with the fall out after the meet up if it's brought up but similarly life goes on and we would still be talking about the past but omitting any reference to their gender.

@heathspeedwell
Just one point on your last comment where you mention that it is quoted that 1 in 10 attending the Tavistock clinic had an abusive father/stepfather which I agree is a frightening statistic but it also means that 9 out 10 didn't.

@Youmeanyouvelostyourkey unfortunately it doesn't mean that 9 out of 10 kids didn't have an abusive father/ step father. It just means that 9 out of ten didn't have a convicted abuser as a father.

There's sadly plenty of evidence that many parents of children at the Tavistock were homophobes who would rather have a trans child than a gay child. A lot of the doctors who resigned in protest were gay men who were told they were 'taking things too personally.' There was a dark joke at the Tavistock that there would be no gay children left.

The Cass review has also highlighted that kids who are confused about their gender are considerably more likely to be homosexual than the general population. It's a very real concern that some parents are homophobic. If you've seen Susie Green (former head of Mermaids Charity) Ted Talk, she makes it very clear that her husband was horrified at the prospect of having a gay son, but is delighted to have a trans daughter.

You seem a really caring parent with your child’s best interests at heart. You don’t sound like the kind of parent like the OP’s friend who is trying to police the speech of others. I think most reasonable people adopt and live and let live approach to other people’s lifestyle choices - it’s when they or their own children are expected to modify their own behaviours to fit in with a gender dysphoric person’s demands that people have strong feelings, but other that that, I don’t think anyone has ill wishes towards people suffering with their mental health.

@HeadNorth quite so.

I think because my parents were very liberal I didn't see the discrimination.
I have a mixed marriage and a gay BFF.

Nature and nurture.

@heathspeedwell
I see the argument that within the 90% there MAY be some non convicted abusers but it's not correct to say that most of them are abusers either. There will be a lot of innocent parents within that group of 90%