To complain about “gender identity” question on a registration form

[Manhere2024]

Man here. I just tried to fill in a form sent out by a charity, but one of the questions was:

“Is your gender identity the same as the gender you were assigned at birth?”

I tried ignoring it, but it’s not possible to submit the form without answering this question.

So I emailed them saying that I don’t believe in gender identity theory, & it’s discriminatory for them not to give an option for those of us who are gender critical. I have asked if they can change the form, or handle my registration in another way.

I think they’ll be surprised, and perhaps I’ve embarrassed myself. But I won’t go along with something I consider to be harmful and wrong.

AIBU? What will likely happen next?

Also if you want to collect statistics whether someone is living as thier natal gender really can make a big difference.

So have a question relevant to that and that alone and one that those to whom it does not apply can skip over or tick not applicable.

There would be absolute outrage here if for example crime statistics only looked at the lived gender identity of an individual.

Have you been living under a rock lately? Not noticed how crime statistics have been skewed due to exactly the above happening?

Gender critical can’t have it both ways. Trans people exist and have every right to exist.

No-one is saying either of those things, but you know that you are just saying it for effect.

The only people who want it both ways are those in thrall to Gender Ideology.

No-one is saying either of those things, but you know that you are just saying it for effect.

There are people on here are saying trans people don't exist. Maybe you're not saying that but others do.

There are people on here are saying trans people don't exist. Maybe you're not saying that but others do.

Evidence please.

If you want to double check you can read from the start of this thread, you'll see the posts quite quickly.

Gender and gender identity are surely the same thing? I definitely feel female. Difficult to define but it's a combination of physical traits and attributes with societal conditioning. Things like having a certain body shape, having periods, having the possibility of carrying and giving birth to children, having certain personality traits, for some women it would include wearing make up jewellery long hair high heels (although not for me). It includes a lot of subtle mannerisms and behavioural traits, the way that women respond to social cues, a lot is subconscious. Obviously not all women have all of these factors, but the majority do. I don't agree that most people don't have a gender identity.

I don't think it's actually possible to change sex or gender although some people may have traits that make them feel out of the norm of their own gender and that might make them feel they would fit better in the other gender, particularly in the current climate.

Well done @Manhere2024 I always try to call out these forms. The more of us the better.

And for the TRAs, us saying we don't believe in your religion doesn't mean you don't exist. You're not Tinkerbell. You're real human beings who will carry on existing whatever others believe. You're welcome.

Gender and gender identity are surely the same thing?

No. Gender is a social construct based on sex (binary, immutable) and a concept used by sociologists. Gender identity is the equivalent of a gendered soul.

How can someone be transgender if, as some here are saying, gender identity doesn't exist?

(Obviously the flesh and blood people who are trans "exist" - the point is that some here are saying they're not actually transgender.)

No, you made the assertion you should be easily able to reference it and provide said evidence to back up your claim, why should I look on your behalf?

Because you want to know something. I'm not that invested.

Of course, to remain inclusive, virtuous, and non-bigoted etc. the question should be "does your racial identity match that which was assigned to you at birth?"

I was criticised at work for not supporting others because I didn't post my pronouns in my email signature.

My response was that I fully support my colleagues and will address them as they wish as that's polite. But for myself I don't care if someone addresses me as he or she because it shouldn't matter if I'm male or female because if it did matter that would be discriminatory.

Confused the batshit out of them.

You can put "pronouns: any" or "don't mind", or something like that.

So just making spurious claims you can't back up then, okay par for the course.

The thing is if say I was identified at birth was female but if I like dressing as a man ( or as a stereotypical male ) and conforming to male stereotypes like having short hair and/or minimising my breast size and/or taking hormones to lower my voice and increase body hair but still see myself as a woman then I am a gender non conforming woman - (which is a thing now I am told ). I would.have to tick no to that question. That would make the data meaningless as who the hell cares if I spend time and energy looking or presenting like a man. I am still female and identify as a woman yet my answer would suggest that I am trans .

This is an example of why these questions are terrible . They do not give you any meaningful or useful information because there is no commonly understood definition of the terms used . I trained and worked in market research for years and object strongly to questions that are not written to be as clearly understood as possible ..

Unless the survey is about trans and gender identity or collecting information related to this there is absolutely no need to ask this question. If the questionnaire is a health one then asking about sex is all that is needed as that can make a difference to health care needs.

If you absolutely want to ask about gender ask

What sex are you?
Male
Female
Intersex
Other
Prefer not to say

What gender do you identify with?
Male
Female
Neither male nor female/ Non binary
Prefer not to say

The latter question is pretty meaningless in terms.of how useful it is but it is at least clear

Yes, you've embarrassed yourself. Anti-trans people are very vocal on mumsnet but they don't represent the majority. The vast majority of people working for a charity won't be anti-trans and they will think you are just a twit.

No. I am female (sex) but I don't have a gender identity.

I hope you're not this rude irl.

Gender identity exists as an idea, so some people believe in or use that idea, others don't.

I'm not disputing it exists as a concept, but I don't think it's a useful concept as it is associated with damaging stereotypes and with the belief that we have to identify with set traits or behaviours — these are ideas many feminists in particular have fought to dismantle, in order to allow anyone and everyone to express themselves however they wish or feel the need to. I don't believe in assigning set gender roles or identities; I believe they're social constructs which have caused enormous harm to everyone. This is nowadays called being gender critical: being critical of the notion of gender as an existing "essence" or quality of a person, rather than gender as an idea assigned to (and/or adopted by) a person.

I'd love to know what a 'gender identity' even is.

I'd need to know what it is before I can say whether I have one or not.

I don't find the concept of gender applies meaningfully to me personally, as I don't feel like a man or a woman, but I accept that it is different for other people and I am not going to argue against it for them.

How can someone be transgender if, as some here are saying, gender identity doesn't exist?

How can someone be Christian if, as some here are saying, God doesn't exist?

(Obviously the flesh and blood people who are trans "exist" - the point is that some here are saying they're not actually transgender.)

Obviously the flesh and blood people who are Christian "exist" - the point is that some here are saying they are not actually Christian.

Gender Ideology is a faith, a belief, I do not believe in it, I do not adhere to it and I won't partake in it. Other people can and clearly do but they are not at liberty to coerce me into doing so no more than anyone of whatever religious faith can coerce others into believing, adhering to and partaking in that faith.

Someone can of course be transgender, therefore, if they once identified with one gender and now identify with the other.

No one I've noticed commenting here or met in real life (but unfortunately, horrifically, frightening bigots like Trump and his supporters or people with religious views requiring rigid gender conformity, among others do) disputes such people exist and have every right to identify as they with.

Oh I am so wounded that you think I am rude, I see myself as not rude you are denying my existence as a non rude person, waah.

Fair enough. I argue against it as a terrifyingly destructive ideology at the heart of horrific abuse, mainly of women, in the UK still, but even more so in many other countries where we have far fewer hard-won freedoms. I understand individuals might feel that gender is an essential part of their biological make up or an intrinsic part of their identity, but I hope they're educated or willing to educate themselves in the societal and political oppression of which this belief is a mainstay and I hope they can understand it's not ok to push this belief on others.