MIL thinks having c-section isn’t “giving birth”

[Newmum288]

Which offends me! I had a c-section. My daughter was born. She still has a birthday. If I didn’t birth her, how the heck is she here?!

YABU - a c-section isn’t “giving birth”
YANBU - a c-section is still “giving birth”

Oh yes. My DH's ex said when I told her it was a section (of course she already knew) and she said 'oh so not a real birth then'!!!! I said it felt pretty real to me! Cow.

I had an EMCS.

I've never described it as "giving birth".

I didn't give birth imo.

I've since had a laparoscopic vaginal hysterectomy and often joke that where ds was baked and housed came out where he should come out from!

I've honestly got far more things in life to be concerned about than the semantics around child birth.

If it’s not ‘natural’ ( vaginal birth) then it must ‘unnatural’ (c-section)

And it really does have negative connotations for a lot of women.

A lot of women are left feeling that they failed. Words do really mean a lot here.

I just wish we would leave the ‘natural’ bit out and just move on to vaginal birth or c-section because it could save a lot of women feeling like they failed.

Yes, I’m sure normal is used informally. In the hospital I worked in (medical records, nothing grand), the V in SVD definitely stood for vertex, though people seeing it on a card would assume it stood for vaginal.

If it’s not ‘natural’ ( vaginal birth) then it must ‘unnatural’ (c-section)

And it really does have negative connotations for a lot of women.

if vaginal birth is natural then c-section would be non-natural, not unnatural. Epidurals, forceps, induction are all non-natural parts of vaginal births. It is what it is.

Most people don't have a natural (completely unaided) birth anyway.

I just wish we would leave the ‘natural’ bit out and just move on to vaginal birth or c-section because it could save a lot of women feeling like they failed.

Hmm the term vaginal birth isn't my favourite, I mean we all know it's where they emerge from but the phrase slightly gives me the ick.

I may be in the minority but I don't mind non sections being called normal or natural births because my sections weren't given they required surgical intervention (and no effort from me whatsoever..).

Its interesting that you see your c- section as requiring no effort ( from you)

Thats why C-Sections are viewed as ‘the easy way out’ ‘too posh to push’ ‘not a natural birth’

Its engrained that unless you suffer, struggle and pant to push your baby out - it’s not a ‘natural birth’ - the media and social media has played a huge part in this.

Natural intrinsically means good
unnatural intrinsically means bad.

If a vaginal birth is natural (good) then anything else must be ‘bad’ - this is buried deep in societies minds.

I work with pregnant women and some have to absolutely fight to get a C-section - even after really traumatic births. This is because it’s cheaper for the NHS. But I genuinely think that every women should be asked how they want to give birth and given what they request. ( but that’s another issue)

I, actually ,think that this very common idea that during vaginal delivery the woman is an active participant, has control and can affect the outcome is a large part of the problem. It gives massive guilt when something goes wrong and creates this competitiveness and makes some people into judgy twats. In reality, if you’re going to have a straight forward, easy birth you’re probably going to get it even if you do nothing and if something is seriously wrong there’s very little you can do about it on your own.

For the record, I had a vaginal delivery and, yes, I experienced the pains and was mentally present for the process, but ultimately my body was just along for the ride. The only actual impact I was making was through medical decisions and advocating for myself with the staff but a good birthing partner could have technically done the same.

How does this even come up as a thing? "MIL, what a strange thing to say out loud."

If a vaginal birth is natural (good) then anything else must be ‘bad’ - this is buried deep in societies minds.

I take your point but I don't feel it was bad as such. But lying on a bed while someone removes your baby requires no effort compared to pushing it out of the other exit (I've heard enough horror stories to appreciate what my friends went through). There was some recovery (and I had a spinal leak so needed a blood patch which was not pleasant) but give me that over an episiotomy or forceps every time.

I'm pretty relaxed about it so if I got any abuse (light hearted or otherwise), I'd agree with them that their birth was a lot harder than mine and I got off very lightly. To me, it was a means to an end, I really don't need validation of my birth experience.

Tell her to fuck off from me. I've heard how difficult c sections are. I know someone who got her scar infected and it was brutal.

There wasn't much passive about the 40 hours of contractions and 2 hours of futile attempts to push DS1 and his big knobbly back-to-back head out. After 2 births, the only bit I can't describe is crowning, but given that I felt like I was on fire from ribs to knees before the spinal block relieved me from pain for the first time in months (thanks SPD) I don't think I was missing out on much. DS1 might have been a late EMCS after all that hard work, but I still had stiches in my undercarriage from force of pushing and apparently not the ventouse. I think emerging from all of that with a baby (via HDU and NICU) is more than acceptable grounds to state that I gave birth to him.

DS2 was a "sucessful VBAC" but again born in a mad panic in an operating theatre. This time pushing with all my might and the surgeon's tugging with the forceps did pay off and he didn't have to use them to shove DS2 back up for a complex CS. I couldn't sit on a firm surface for at least a month. It wasn't any more "natural" and the only advantages were that my body happened to do it quicker so I was less exhausted. Both recoveries were long and difficult but in different ways. While DS2 used the main exit, there was no further physical experience of birth gained following DS1's EMCS. Both times I didn't feel the actual eviction stage because of the spinal blocks.

Birth is often emotive because there's often a lot of trauma attached, often but not exclusively from emergency situations. There's layers of control, consent, expectation, diginity, fear and pain wrapped up in it. It's not just physical health that matters in outcomes, it's mental too. Physical health of mothers is often minimised too. It's not that surprising that many women emerge with trauma when birth is presented as something "natural" and routine and it all spirals off on its own chaotic course.

I don't have an issue with people personally feeling like they haven't had an experience of giving birth when it's via CS, but I would have issue with someone telling me that I haven't because it's an act of minimising the process and lengthy recovery that my body went through, and neither the EMCS nor the VBAC were smooth or quick processes to go through or recover from.

I don't know why some women get competitive about parts of pregnancy/ birth/ parenting that are uncontrollable. I had a couple of people get funny with me about the debilitating effects of SPD too. Yes, pregnancy can do a fucking good impression of illness, and it's not about a lack of moral fortitude. Apply as necessary to feeding babies etc.

Yes, same as me. If someone actually said to me "but you didn't give birth though" I would say "what does it matter, I had a baby - same result".

I do think we're all a little bit guilty of over-emphasising the whole birth thing, when actually the next 18 years are what really counts in the parenting of a child.

I've had c-sections and I don't think of it as giving birth as such, more as surgery, but each to their own really, it's just different ways of wording something, as long as no offence was intended.

Although I did once see a section referred to as an abdominal birth and I thought that was a bit ridiculous!

I gave birth to both of mine vaginally. However after minor abdominal surgery I feel that mums who had caesarean sections can absolutely call it what they like. That shit must have really hurt!

I don't use the term natural birth myself BTW, I was just responding to a pp question 'What is natural?'as if it couldn't be defined. Natural doesn't equal better. Chemo is not natural and many people owe their lives to it! So I don't have any hang up with it myself and I would be very careful around this type of language/birth/feeding etc with other women. I don't see a c section as unnatural BTW, but as . necessary intervention, that's all.

People overthink the use of words. It is a natural birth when you go into labour and give birth naturally with no intervention or medication. People arguing it are just making the word far more important than it is!

I had a natural delivery. No interventions or medications because I didn’t need anything. My child was not at risk, I was not at risk. I get to call it what I want though.

Words are actually very important.

You tell a child they are stupid - they will believe you

You tell your wife she is fat she will believe you

You tell a nation a women can have a penis important legislation is changed to the detriment of real women because some people actually believe you.

So actually yeah - words are really important

But I see you’ve also nudged on to having a medication free child birth is natural.

Why do you think it’s unnatural to have pain relief? Do you think the vast majority of women get through child birth without it? You were extremely lucky to have an easy birth. Have a look on the birth trauma birds on Facebook to look at the reality of too many women who had to have intervention and medication and are left feeling ‘unnatural’ and failures because of engrained language around this

There are so many social media platforms that advocate that ‘drug free’ ( pain relief medication’) is the natural way. Why would they want women to suffer? I’m natural - your not - resonates through out that wording

Even the wording ‘drug free’ sounds like you’re giving up ‘drugs’. What kind of drugs? Smack, crack, spice?

Words are very important.

Natural does equal ‘better’

These are all words associated with it - organic, healthier, essential, instinctive, universal, good.

Non Natural -
abnormal, irregular, unreasonable, irregular bad.

I don't think either two of my vaginal births were natural or normal. They both involved medications and interventions. Same as my EMCS.

What does a ‘natural birth’ mean to you?

See I say I didn't give birth to my first but I did to my second.

@Hugosmaid If I hear the term "natural" I'd assume no intervention, pushing the baby out on my own. As it was, my vaginal births had a lot of intervention with babies literally being dragged out.

I really don't care either way. My end goal was a healthy baby however it exited my body. Can't say I am fussed if that is natural, normal, unnatural, extraordinary...

I guess my point is, saying vaginal = natural and C-section = unnatural, isn't that simple because there's a whole spectrum of births.

The very definition of a natural birth is no medication or intervention.

You made a point about how my births must have been easy. They weren’t and if you have given birth yourself you know that is impossible. My vagina didn’t spring open and a child placed in my arms. It was hard work but manageable for me. Yes it hurt, yes I was tired out but I did not want anything for it.

Anyone who is at risk during birth should absolutely have every intervention going. Anyone who decides they want intervention at any point should absolutely have it.

Anyone who chooses/has the lucky option to go through birth without intervention should also be able to have it and call it what it is without someone rocking up and saying it was an easy birth and do you want a medal? Just as bad as the ops mil in that case.

Yep but one of them is only classed as natural. Vaginal birth no pain relief.

So by that thinking all my three births were unnatural. My children started their life in an ‘unnatural’ way.

1 vaginal with G&A
2 Emergency CS
3 Planned CS

All of the three were just classed as successful births to me - I went home with live babies.

All this went completely over my head until I started working with pregnant women who shared their feelings about it and went on to the birth trauma boards. We just celebrated C-Section awareness month a short while back.

But yes I do think we should try and move forward with the language around this.