To not see how the gov will make any money from taxing private schools?

[AngryHedgehog]

All the other threads seem to have descended into bunfighting over the ethics of the policy, yet I'm not really understanding how this stands to benefit the government as surely they'll be footing the bill for all the kids that move to state schools?

As a disclaimer, I don't have kids and wouldn't be able to afford to privately educate them even if I did, despite earning a half decent salary.

I'm reading that it costs around £7k per pupil per term, so it would take the VAT from around four families to fund each additional child moving to state education.

Given that this may be 4/10 kids in private education moving to state schooling, I don't see how this doesn't create a net loss as there will only be 50% more kids left in private education and there needs to be multiple times that for the VAT increase to foot the bill.

Surely I'm missing something here?

If your son moves to state school he will not be seen as being badly behaved. From what you have described this would be classed as low-level disruption and considered par for the course.

Teaching back in the state sector was an eye-opener. One child had been expelled from a nearby private school and was an absolute pain to teach. He was bright, but rude, lazy and provoked the other pupils by laughing when they got something wrong.

The head described him as ‘lively’ but said she couldn’t understand why the independent school had expelled him because, according to her, his behaviour wasn’t ’that bad’. She wondered if the staff in the private school were less able to cope than those in the state sector and that was why he had been told to leave.

This is the point some on this thread are wilfully misunderstanding or ignoring.

The staff in the independent school were not lacking in discipline skills, they just didn’t see why class time should be wasted on someone who really didn’t want to be there and whose presence was a detriment to the peaceful education of the other pupils.

State schools frequently have lower expectations of behaviour than independent schools.

State schools which do have equivalent behavioural expectations are the ones that either manage out the disruptive pupils (although that is difficult) or who have a selective intake and so can be a little more discriminating in those they accept. It’s much easier if the school is already oversubscribed.

Lower sets in independent schools contain pupils who struggle or are less able. Lower sets in state schools contain those who can’t as well as those who won’t. This isn’t fair on the lower ability pupils. They have as much right to a calm education as their more able peers.

If those who truly believe that importing independent school pupils into underperforming state schools will magically turn those schools around, would you please explain HOW you think this will happen.

Are you suggesting that independent school style behavioural expectations will be put in place and that expulsions of the badly behaved will suddenly become the norm?

If so, why hasn’t that happened already? There are thousands of children of middle class and/or wealthy parents already in the state sector. So why does the independent sector have a better reputation for behaviour?

Why are there organisations such as No More Exclusions who are actively campaigning to make it illegal to exclude a child from school for any reason whatsoever - including rape?

Would you be happy for your child’s state school to adopt zero tolerance to bad behaviour? Would you be happy to see it become a model of Michaela School?

Because if you really think that the parents of independent school pupils will magically enact a transformation on state schools you have to accept that the only way this would happen is if state schools adopted the independent structure and expectations.

Is that what you want?

If so, why haven’t you campaigned for that already?

@HeartseaseGarden , my son is not rude and not mean, but would definitely laugh when others got it wrong (not realising that it could be hurtful) and would muck a lot - he already does all these things and the only way to control him is by the constant threat of detention.

unfortunately he is indeed very bright and charming - so is manipulating the teachers to get away with it. Successfully for some teachers. He managed to ruin a history test recently by talking in “code”, making comments which helped the rest of the class to figure out the answers. He also randomly let a couple of friends look at his answers. Apparently he smiled at the history teacher and managed to somehow get away with only the threat of detention and no real detention.

I think he would be a complete nuisance in any class where discipline wasn’t very strict. But it is really not my problem, I don’t have the energy to deal with it.

He is academically very successful because I spend my last energy making him do all school extensions and any additional work I can get my hand off from books I buy on Amazon. Maybe with the extra cash from not paying fees, I can get some really bright tutors to help me pushing him academically.

They can fund how they want if they are the government with a comfortable majority

They can’t - they are tied up in contracts with third party providers even if you ignore the role of local authorities.

But in any case the marginal cost of squeezing one more pupil in a class may be small, but the next extra pupil requires a new classroom and another teacher.

I’ve entered this conversation late and have no real skin in the game.
But I don’t think this about making money or saving money.
its partly about class (as everything boils down to); and partly down to perceived tax fairness.

Basic food is VAT exempt. But if you want cake then you have to pay tax on it. There is an argument that education should be treated the same.

I kind of agree with the argument, but as an advocate for education, I resent any barriers to the best or most suitable education for anyone.

IMO all education should be of a high standard and free. As should healthcare. And if they’re not and you have to pay an excess then that should be tax deductible.

Maybe there is an argument for a council tax rebate for those who don’t benefit from state schools ?

Except that cake is zero rated for VAT.

@LeggyLinda the fact that cake is zero rated (rather than exempt like schools) also means that cake sellers etc can reclaim their input VAT. Private schools can’t. Private schools are already treated less favourably for VAT purposes than cake.

Today's Times.

VAT may not be disaster for private schools.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/01/labour-tax-raid-forces-another-private-school-to-close/

daily telegraph a couple of hours ago… second private school closed, this one with a significant proportion of SEN students.

i guess we won’t know until it is implemented

This is the problem. Even the threat of VAT is having huge implications even now, before it’s implemented.

Depressing

"Downham, which teaches children up to the age of 13, suffered a blow to its finances during the pandemic, exacerbated by soaring energy bills in the fallout of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

The school and its on-site nursery, which will remain open for now, were home to more than 150 children before Covid. But numbers have dropped over the past few years to 40 at the most recent count, around a dozen of whom have special needs."

Bit of a stretch to blame it on VAT. Sounds like they were on the way out anyway.

12 SEN students. It's only a significant proportion because the total number is so tiny.

VAT won’t have been the only issue with that school, I agree. The problem is that schools have faced huge increases in overheads over the last few years (just like the rest of us - energy bills, food etc). VAT will be the tipping point for many.

Exactly. It’s pretty easy to see a 20% tax after rising overheads will be the final straw

Still, people are keen to see them fold

No other business/charity, unless it was something borderline illegal, would people be so happy to see close. Especially one which benefits children.

Most of the parents I know using private, if they want to, can afford the hike with some sacrifices. For example, most couples only have one parent working full time. So they could easily increase their income by more than the extra. Lots choose state at A levels because the gains from private education diminish as it’s already smaller class sizes and children that have selected to do A levels. It’s also a chance to save more for supporting through uni.

They won’t close unless they were already badly managed or in areas with less demand. Thinking about DCs old school I can see lots of ways both the school and the parents could save money and make more money. It just requires a little bit of sacrifice or creativity. They will be fine. It’s really not the end of private education and there really won’t be swathes of kids suddenly needing state provision or hundreds of private schools closing. I’d bet good money on it.

I'm a governor at a small independent. Closure is a real possibility.

Why? Are your parents really unable to make some cut backs? Are they living in the smallest house possible? The cheapest area? Do they never go on holiday? Do they drive an old banger? Do they all work full time? Can the school not claim back the VAT on its purchases? Can it not rent out space? Charge for places in its after school clubs and holiday provision? Rent out amenities? Make cuts to the staffing team? Etc etc. I’m sorry, but if it’s being run with such tight margins that it can’t adapt to this then it was never viable or is badly managed.

Smaller schools will find it harder. I’m not sure why you’re surprised. Of course there will be closures, isn’t that what you and others are after? What did you think would happen

It's not that I'm happy to see it fold. I just don't think you can blame it's closure on a VAT increase that hasn't happened and may not happen (Labour win is not guaranteed).

Behaviour is already changing because VAT is very likely. Once you commit to private the notice period and potentially full state schools make it hard to switch.

Parents will know this and act along the lines of VAT coming in, to not do so would be financially irresponsible

Well so far as the parents are concerned, it is not for us to tell then how to manage their finances. If they choose to pull their child out or just don't choose to take up their place in year R, then that is their choice. As for the school - maybe fees could be higher, or maybe we could charge local schools/communities to use facilities instead of letting them do so for free but otherwise we're pretty maxed out - our facilities are pretty basic and we generate revenue where possible - but we're very small and so 10 kids leaving can make a difference. Otherwise, as you say, we could make redundancies. It's NOT, however, badly managed; it's a fantastic environment, that has thrived for many years, loved by children, parents and staff.

On the one hand we are told people shouldn’t have started sending their kids to private school unless they had money for large tax increases. On the other hand we are told you can’t blame parents pulling out of private due to vat because it hasn’t happened yet.