To not see how the gov will make any money from taxing private schools?

[AngryHedgehog]

All the other threads seem to have descended into bunfighting over the ethics of the policy, yet I'm not really understanding how this stands to benefit the government as surely they'll be footing the bill for all the kids that move to state schools?

As a disclaimer, I don't have kids and wouldn't be able to afford to privately educate them even if I did, despite earning a half decent salary.

I'm reading that it costs around £7k per pupil per term, so it would take the VAT from around four families to fund each additional child moving to state education.

Given that this may be 4/10 kids in private education moving to state schooling, I don't see how this doesn't create a net loss as there will only be 50% more kids left in private education and there needs to be multiple times that for the VAT increase to foot the bill.

Surely I'm missing something here?

They aren’t threats, they are potential consequences of the increase in VAT-

A number of things will happen-

1. Some parents who can afford the VAT increase easily will stay : this is 20% in our prep school.
2. Some who can just afford the increase but will have to give up certain things will question wether the increase justifies this
3. Some will leave (in our school it’s 60% from the surveys) and their children will go into the state sector.

You talk as if everyone who pays for private education can afford a substantial increase. Can you afford £9000 extra a year?

As a state school teacher ( and one who sits on the board for the CC regarding this) again, yes overall there is capacity to take these children into state schools in the UK. However; not necessarily in their local area. This is where the problem lies. Where we live theres no state school places for 35 miles. So the council would be responsible for paying for taxis to get the children to their new schools. It’s pointless saying there’s spaces in Scotland if the child lives in Northampton!

I agree- there will be little impact on state school children already in the system. I don’t read anywhere where people are making threats about the disadvantage they will suffer. All I can see and is being discussed in our CC meetings, is that if the places in state schools are taken by the children who live out of normal state school catchment, and those places begin to be filled by those living in the catchment area (who would have previously put their child in a private school) ; then the knock on effect after a number of years, would be that the local
schools are full and if you are outside that catchment you can’t get a place in your chosen preferred school.

Other knock on effects -

1. People move to new areas where they have better state schools and push house prices up. But this wouldn’t really be a huge amount to make an accountable difference.

But overall whether the children remain in private or state education; they will do just fine. If parents take their children out they can afford more holidays, private tuition and to save for houses for them. Their money will be spent differently and it’s a parents choice which decision they make.

No one is saying that most will close down. Even if “only” 10 per cent fail that’s still thousands of children and teachers and other staff who will be impacted. For what? Ideology? If only the Labour Party and other supporters of this policy would put their energy into improving state education.

So your default position is that absolutely everything should be taxed? Why?

@Thepinkyponkc

The data shows that the number of people moving from private to state will be very small. I'm not really interested in people pleading special consideration for their particular set of circumstances on the internet.

The data also shows that whilst fees have increased by 50 % of more on average in the last decade, the numbers attending private education are higher than in 2010.

Most private school parents can afford the increase, those who are "just about managing" unfortunately have made an imprudent financial decision in committing to private education.

"Can you afford 9,000 a year?" where did you pick this figure from? However, a household that currently spends 47,000 a year on education, significantly higher than the national household median income, will probably able to find some wiggle room in their budget to the tune of 173 pounds a week.

It helps if people are honest about these things, the wailing and gnashing of teeth from private school parents has been extremely disappointing to watch.

Here’s where it’s from- our fees are £43000 a year so 20% increase is roughly £9000

Also I don’t think many are whailing or gashing like you say…. They will be fine. They will spend their saved money from Fees on other things and enjoy their holidays and being able to help their kids on the housing ladder, and their children will be fine in any school.

It is £8600 extra, although most schools have already said they will absorb some of the vat costs.
But school fees of £43,000 are very high. That is the cost of boarding at Eton. I do not think people struggling to pay their mortgages will care about people in this situation at all.

For one child it’s the cost of boarding. That’s a different service.

We pay for 2 children’s day school fees and it costs that. Very average private school fees for the UK.

I don’t expect people to care at all. I don’t care that much at all either- we are wealthy, we have a nice life, I’m not saying we don’t! People who have children in private schools have above average wealth - that’s a fact (unless they are on burseries etc) . We will just make different decisions and spend our money on other things.

The probelm is people moaning above the VAT increase. If you can’t afford it, move to state school. Sorted! And there are knock on effects to this in a lot of areas, increased teachers, we’re using our state child education allowance now, etc but that’s all great and fine. It’s a fact that there will be consequences to it that need acknowledging but it’s no one’s business other than the families deciding what to do for their children.

It’s been really disappointing watching people misrepresent data like you do. The overall percentage of pupils in private schools has actually decreased over the last decade.

You’re not really interested in people pleading special consideration, well that says everything about you doesn’t it. Couldn’t care less if someone’s child suffers or a teacher or other worker loses their job.

The data does not support a small number of pupils leaving. We might get a better picture in September once the new school year begins - many parents are like me holding on to a state and to a private place for the time being for year 7 transfer. However, we do know that private schools applications have decreased this year. And some of us who have DC in year 6 at private schools can see a change in behaviour this year with larger numbers accepting state places.

It helps if people are honest about these things, the wailing and gnashing of teeth from private school parents has been extremely disappointing to watch.

Please elaborate who exactly is being dishonest. From where I am standing, there has been a range of responses from private school parents; some are not happy but will pay the extra, some believe the policy is fair and will pay the extra, some simply cannot afford any more and are understandably extremely concerned because they will be forced to pull their child out (many of these are parents of children who have previously struggled in the state sector or have SEN), some will be sucking it up until the next transition and then make necessary adjustments to move to state. One has even admitted they can comfortably afford the extra and are very happy it will reduce the competition their child is facing for the oversubscribed private they want to send them to.

I wouldn't define any of this as 'wailing and gnashing of teeth'. Nor are they making threats - the decision is out of their control and they will cut their cloth accordingly. People are simply stating their position.

I am seeing far more nasty comments from those who do not use the private sector revelling in delight that children will be forced to leave 'posh' schools and parents forced to budget. Lots of name calling for their children. Also countless comments how parents should not have started private education without a crystal ball to know they would be hit with CoL, mortgage rates rocketing and a 20% increase on fees in addition to the above inflation annual increases (of which the latter had been carefully budgeted for). The overwhelming judgement, spite and despicable behaviour is not coming from private school parents

Who exactly has asked for sympathy from those paying their mortgages?
It is tiresome when posters like you keep comparing to those who are on the breadline because it misses the point entirely

There has been a lot of dishonesty. A lot.
And the number of overall pupils has fallen. Of course there are less pupils in the private sector. There are less in the state sector too.

£69 a week is over £3,500 a year. Two children makes that £7,000 a year. For many parents, it will be more than that. Assuming an income tax rate of 40%, that takes gross earnings of £12k just to cover the VAT. I can assure you that a lot of private school parents don’t have a spare gross income of £12k splashing around. It’s laughable when people accuse private school parents of not living in the real world and then say “but it’s only £x”. Most people would think that £12k of salary is a lot of money to suddenly find.

@Dibblydoodahdah why should someone else cares if your child has to move from the private to the state sector?
And sadly businesses go bust all the time, people are made redundant, and have to find another job. People in private schools at least have marketable skills.

Where is the dishonesty? You can't just throw about accusations without any base. Lots of people are stating their circumstances, what proof do you have that they are being dishonest?

Or you have just decided they are because their comment does not suit your argument.

I'm not misinterpreting the data at all, the % of children has declined because there has been a population bulge in the school years, the actual number of children has increased despite the 50% increase in fees.

I'm not interested in people who are very privileged already special pleading ( not special consideration, that's a different thing) for their privileges to continue.

Anecdotes again though, there are drops in the numbers for this year going into year 7 are down by 2.7% for private schools, but 2.5% for all non private London secondaries ( which indicates a trend not related to VAT). There are a mix of reasons for this and the prospect of Labour getting in and adding VAT is probably a tiny determinant overall.

Many families have more than one child, just like the state sector. By the way, your quoted fees for Eton are incorrect. In any case, most private school children are not at schools like Eton.

@Another76543

@ It’s laughable when people accuse private school parents of not living in the real world and then say “but it’s only £x”. Most people would think that £12k of salary is a lot of money to suddenly find.@AngryHedgehog

Someone who would be paying that amount extra in VAT is already spending 36,000 on private education, more than the national median household income. Lets not pretend that they couldn't make some different spending decisions to find the money if they really needed to.

@morechocolateneededtoday have you read these threads?
Claims loads of private school pupils are going to leave and join the state sector meaning no one else will get their child into a good state school.
Claims this is an example of class war.
Claims that the government will put vat on nurseries.
Claims the government will put vat on universities leading to a collapse in foreign students and a collapse in our universities.
Lots and lots of dishonesty - all over an extra £69 a week. It is laughable the level of dishonesty.

Once again, who is pleading? Who is asking for privileges or special treatment?
People pointing out that they will be negatively impacted by a policy which stands to have no overall benefit to society is not pleading for anything.
You are creating your own agenda here

OP isn’t asking you to care! No one is saying anyone other than themselves need to care!! You really don’t need to care about our situation! OP and other posters are discussing the consequences and chatting about what impact it will have on THEIR own lives! If it’s not relevant to you then move on 🤣

Ah sorry I got it wrong. Eton boarding school fees are just under £50,000. But £43,000 is still at the top of private school fees. The average for 2024 is £18,000. Which means an extra £69 a week.

"Lots of people are stating their circumstances, what proof do you have that they are being dishonest?"

As said the data on who uses private schools doesn't match the Mumsnet narative which is very disingenuous.

All those poor private school parents living in slum like conditions with monk like levels of self abnegation to afford a private school because who sadly only live near schools where murders happen daily and their child with acute special needs has been failed terribly by the awful staff.

Or what it is in reality, a group of highly privileged people trying to protect their privileges.

I think you need to go back to school and work on your comprehension. I will correct it for you...

Predictions many private school pupils are going to leave and join the state sector meaning those on just outside catchment will struggle to get their child into the better state schools.
Predictions that the government may put vat on nurseries.
Predictions the government may put vat on universities leading to a reduction in foreign students and a negative impact on our universities.

Predicting something could happen as a result of a policy is not the same as claiming it will happen. And the predictions are not baseless - Greece tried the VAT on private education with dire consequences on state education. Labour are the ones who introduced university fees and it is not a stretch to suggest that they could start taxing other aspects of education once the door is open.

Just because you don't agree with the prediction, it does not make it dishonest.

@Thepinkyponkc The person posted a comment lamenting that no one cared. I was replying to that.

If you’re referring to an example a previous poster gave, they may have more than one child. Many families do. 2 children at an average private school will cost an extra £7k a year in VAT. Most families would think that £7k is a lot of money. Perhaps it isn’t a lot to you, but many families in private school would think it is.