To not see how the gov will make any money from taxing private schools?

[AngryHedgehog]

All the other threads seem to have descended into bunfighting over the ethics of the policy, yet I'm not really understanding how this stands to benefit the government as surely they'll be footing the bill for all the kids that move to state schools?

As a disclaimer, I don't have kids and wouldn't be able to afford to privately educate them even if I did, despite earning a half decent salary.

I'm reading that it costs around £7k per pupil per term, so it would take the VAT from around four families to fund each additional child moving to state education.

Given that this may be 4/10 kids in private education moving to state schooling, I don't see how this doesn't create a net loss as there will only be 50% more kids left in private education and there needs to be multiple times that for the VAT increase to foot the bill.

Surely I'm missing something here?

@morechocolateneededtoday Of course those predictions are dishonest. The ones about vat and nurseries and universities are based on no more evidence - well the government could do that. They have no intention of doing that and no one has even suggested it. Totally dishonest. I mean the government could decide to shoot every second child, but I would be dishonest to suggest this could happen with zero evidence.
And the idea that the private sector for schools will collapse because of an average of an extra £69 a week is total hyperbole. For most parents it would simply mean working an extra half hour to two hours a week to pay for it. Or a bit of freelance during their annual leave. In most cases though it will simply mean less going into savings or investments.

Well said!! It is beyond me why someone who cares so little has the time and energy to get themselves so worked up and waste hours discussing it.

If they are supporting a policy in the belief that it will have a beneficial impact on some children then they should also consider the negatives on other children. And of course the impact on people’s jobs should be considered if a policy may result in job losses.

@morechocolateneededtoday The commentator was lamenting that no one cared. I was replying to that.
And I did not care much about this policy until the many many MN threads. Now I think it has to happen.

They are based on the solid evidence that the labour government wants to be the only country in the world that starts to tax education. And all under the guise of trying to get those with privilege pay.... Given those with graduate jobs go on to earn more, what is there stopping them from suggesting taxing university fees? As the government are now providing 'free' childcare from 9 months old (which we all know is anything but), what is there to stop them charging vat on those who want to send their children to nicer nurseries with better facilities? They are plausible predictions unlike your utterly nonsense comparison.

No-one has suggested the entire private sector will collapse, moreso that smaller schools will do with falling numbers of children. This is exactly what happened when Greece did try tax private education. So evidence based and entirely plausible prediction.

The assumption that every family using private education can find an extra £69/child/week is a much better definition of hyperbole.

@morechocolateneededtoday

The reason the 69 pounds a week point is raised is this is what someone already paying 18k for their child's education will need to find. By very definition someone paying this is likely to have the means to make adjustments to their discretionary spending to do so.

The stuff about taxing university education is simply a slippery slope fallacy.

Surely I'm missing something here?

If average fees for schools are £30000, 20% of that is £6000 - therefore 4 pupils at private school would be making VAT in the region of £24,000 per year, which covers nearly 3 and a half pupils are state school

The fact that you believe they can find this amount PER CHILD with small 'adjustments' to spending demonstrates how little you know about many many families using the private sector.

Average fees are around 18K not 30K.
The money from VAT isnt going to fund state school places.

Someone who would be paying that amount extra in VAT is already spending 36,000 on private education, more than the national median household income. Lets not pretend that they couldn't make some different spending decisions to find the money if they really needed to.

Of course they could make some different spending decisions - and as has been repeatedly pointed out - for many that decision is to move at the earliest convenient point to state school.

Then they need to work more hours. Or do what the vast majority of parents do and send their pupils to state school. It really is not the end of the world you know.

to spending demonstrates how little you know about many many families using the private sector.

there can't be that many families as you suggest - as there are only 7% anyway and not even half of them are going to be falling into this category

it is their choice to pay for something that is free at source

@morechocolateneededtoday

The fact that you can't admit that if a parent has more than one child in school and pays 18k for each then they will most likely be able to find 69 pounds per week per child is laughable and totally ignores the actual facts about who uses private schools.

I am totally convinced now that people who are extremely well off do not realise it and actually think they are the "squeezed middle".

Which many of them have said they are planning to do....this will obviously reduce how much VAT is earned from this policy
And funnily enough, it is you that is claiming they are being dishonest in saying this🙄

You all seem to think moving your children to state school is some kind of threat. It is not. You will be given a state school place, although it is unlikely to be in the best state schools.

For each child

Don’t worry, they won’t move them immediately, they will move into good catchments to get good school places at the usual transition points.

Who said it is a threat?

We are moving to state school when my oldest gets to secondary. We have just bought a house in catchment of one of the 'best' state schools (along with 4 other families in DC1's year group).

You are inventing the threats in your own mind. We are just doing what is best for our children.

@Sloejelly

Yes I'm sure that people already paying 36k or upwards a year for their children to be educated can't find this amount of flex in their budgets.

It really is hilarious that you make these arguments on affordability.

I think that the posters who keep arguing on here are privileged with unlimited incomes. I think that’s why they can’t understand people living on budgets as they seem to think it’s a small amount to find but to some it’s undoable. I don’t think they can empathise that some can’t afford a 20% increase.

Also they keep harping on about dishonesty. Not sure what they are on about are there will be consequences of a VAT add on. No one has to care about this other than the children who it impacts, the schools it impacts etc but it’s a fact it will have an effect.

"they will move into good catchments to get good school places at the usual transition points."

@Sloejelly but they already live in the good catchments so could go there anyway.

Keep going with the special pleading, it is hilarious to watch.

You mean they will spend hundreds of thousands to buy a new house to save £69 a week? Maybe they need a course on economics?

“Given that this may be 4/10 kids in private education moving to state schooling”

Said no credible source at any point in recent months. The report cited by the Daily Mail has refuted that figure.

If the VAT increase would be such a killer, how have private school places remained fairly static over the last 20 years given the prices have risen 55%

(Source IFS)

State schools have nurseries where they charge parents if they are above the funding hours, should they be charging VAT too?

@Thepinkyponkc

Some, a tiny minority, won't be able to afford the increase, and this is a shame, but it will be an absolutely tiny minority. The reality of the situation is that the vast majority of families with children in private school can and will find the money to pay the increase.

The dishonesty is the constant invocation of the mumsnet myth of the average private school parent btw.