To not see how the gov will make any money from taxing private schools?

[AngryHedgehog]

All the other threads seem to have descended into bunfighting over the ethics of the policy, yet I'm not really understanding how this stands to benefit the government as surely they'll be footing the bill for all the kids that move to state schools?

As a disclaimer, I don't have kids and wouldn't be able to afford to privately educate them even if I did, despite earning a half decent salary.

I'm reading that it costs around £7k per pupil per term, so it would take the VAT from around four families to fund each additional child moving to state education.

Given that this may be 4/10 kids in private education moving to state schooling, I don't see how this doesn't create a net loss as there will only be 50% more kids left in private education and there needs to be multiple times that for the VAT increase to foot the bill.

Surely I'm missing something here?

Surely people can see a highly likely policy due to Labour coming in and already saying they will do it first up will change behaviour

Parents will act on the basis of VAT because getting tied in to notice is hard to break and creating friendships etc

Plus potentially missing out on best state if they have to switch

@Foodusername do you not think that is what that school will have tried? Parents already stretched by COL will have started to pull out of private school, decided not to send their DC. Bearing in mind you have to give a terms notice parents will have started to bail just in case Labour get in. So will have reduced numbers. If their teachers are under TPS there has been a huge hike in pension contributions (state schools are also struggling with this as not fully funded by Government).

The Etons of this world will survive, smaller schools won't. If smaller schools have relied on overseas boarders, these have reduced too, especially post pandemic.

It’s a headline grabbing tactic to try and show they’re “a party of the people” and they’ll get those damn “rich people”.

@Iscreamtea 12 SEN kids not many, but a high percentage of the remaining children at the school. Doesn't that show how desperate parents with DC with SEND are to ensure their DC get support they need, which they were obviously not getting in state school.

I think this latest closure should provide food for thought to all those suggesting schools reduce fees to counter vat like they are all sitting on comfy surpluses. It was a low fee school catering to middle income children who weren’t able to cope in larger schools- children most likely to benefit from a smaller environment paid for by families most likely to be stretching. It was a school living on very lean margins, which was far more sensitive to smaller changes in the economic landscape, and it could not withstand the threat of vat. Schools like Eton will not be affected, but small schools with disproportionate sen enrolment will be disproportionately affected.

A 20% tax will damage any sector. It'll shrink it - as some would like - and lose jobs and fold schools. The smaller schools will be the ones at greater risk.

The sad thing is once they’re gone it’s permanent

It's a school that had already lost over 70% of its students for other reasons. If this hadn't been the final straw something else would have been. It certainly isn't the main reason that the school has hit difficulties.

Maybe it was inevitable for this school, but it should give pause to all those that assert parents will seamlessly accept a 20% increase. I think it also calls into question the ‘lean private’ model some suggest - where parents accept fewer frills.

ALL children should be treated the same, absolutely!

Therefore the government should fund the children in private school system the same amount of money as if they are in the state system.

I understand that the latest school already had financial issues but the extra 20% VAT was probably the final straw for a school where finance was stretched after COVID.

I think there are many more schools like this out there, small, stretched and where parent put all their disposable income into their children’s school, many because they would struggle in a state school (SEN or other reasons). Those schools will probably not make it.

what I am struggling to understand is the posters saying that parents should scrimp more, that schools should cut their cloth etc. Maybe the school was truly stretched post Covid? Maybe if the cut costs too much (introducing larger classes) parents will no longer finding it worth to put all disposable income in the school? They may then want a state school and to supplement any teaching there with tutoring. At some point, the remaining parents are too few to make the school viable - and yes, terms are paid one term in advance.

The state sector will need to accomplish these additional children and find a way to ensure that the new SEN children and the new disruptive children also get a good education paid for by the state (as they should with all existing pupils).

Whereas we both work and all of DDs friends' parents are a 2 income family.
My wage covers school fees and 2nd car. We pull her out and I can then give up work.
Very few parents in DDs year are single income households.
Maybe you just know pretty wealthy people.

What do you mean?

In some countries they operate a voucher scheme whereby all DC get a state voucher to spend on education. If they wish they can then top this up themselves.
The other point is that every child in private school saves the state 7-8K per year and approx 4.8 billion in total per annum.

It's a much posher school than ours where one of the parents can afford not to work! Both full time here. Joking aside, I'm aware of some really wealthy parents where one doesn't work, but they're not the norm.In fact, I can say that amongst my friendship group ALL of the parents with kids in private school both work full time and ALL of the friends with kids in state work part time or not at all. That's just my anecdote I appreciate but it's interesting.

Interesting. Would make private school much more accessible for people who had never considered it was possible.

Yes indeed. The point is that we actually need MORE options, not fewer. 1 size fits all education doesn't work for many DC. A voucher type system would give parents more power in choosing the best fit for their DC.

I’m not ‘after’ anything. I didn’t devise the policy idea. But it IS a luxury. And they are NOT charities. It’s a legacy situation that needs rectifying.

This is a capitalist society and sometimes businesses fail if they are no longer viable.

If the school is too small to be sustainable then may be it wasn’t a robust enough plan in the first place?

However, you haven’t said if you genuinely think that the parents really couldn’t make some sacrifices or earn more money to cope with the fees. A bit like posters in here that say their South East rents are crippling them, get told to move or get a better job (probably by posters who don’t understand the trap of poverty). These parents can downsize, cut back or work more? Right?

I didn’t say you devised it but you do support it. And you are ready to overlook schools that will close due to it.

Well no they probably can’t given they haven’t. I mean you have as much chance at asking them directly as I do.

So you couldn’t cut back on holidays (bear in mind lots of people can’t afford one and it’s not a human right or a basic need). You couldn’t give up some monthly memberships that others can’t afford? You couldn’t eat differently? Move to a smaller house? Remortgage? Take out a loan? Cut down on heating?

These are all decisions that low income families have to make all the time. Often just to get by, not to keep a luxury.

Most middle class private education users I know could do this. Most have options if they want to prioritise keeping their Dc in PE.

But really you're asking people to do this to fund your kids' education - not their own. This tax is to fund the state system (apparently).

Sorry, double post

What I am struggling to understand is the posters saying that parents should scrimp more, that schools should cut their cloth etc.

My friend is a bursar at a private school and one of their biggest issues is teachers' pensions. I can't remember the exact ins and outs but I think there's a black hole unless contributions increase, potentially on both sides.

Can’t or won’t? Most could. It will depend on whether having a ‘naice’ house in a ‘naice’ area is more or less important to them than keeping their kids in PE. Whether several holidays a year is more important. Etc.

I live in a ‘naice’ house in a ‘naice’ area and used PE before we moved away. I grew up in an average house in an average area and we struggled to afford to eat well. So I’ve seen it from both sides. I work with families from all socio economic backgrounds and have for 30 years. I’ve never known inequality like there is currently. It makes me so sad to work with kids who I know have little to no chance of a long, healthy and contented life.

Putting right an outdated policy of PE being classed as a charity and not paying VAT is just one small step towards shifting the balance.

Hearing all these people who live with a massive amount of privilege compared to the rest of the world, hand wringing over this tiny change is just shocking to be honest.

I get that we want to fight for our children and it’s why I used PE despite not liking that it’s part of a system stacked in favour of the privileged few. But really people, get a grip!!

Most private schools will survive, most parents will be able to make changes to cope with the hike. Of all the people in the world, this demographic is best placed to adapt to change, surely? Where is the resilience and fortitude here? Where is the flexibility? The adaptation?

Government have increased employer contributions to TPS to 28%. Many private schools have come out/coming out of scheme as can’t afford contributions (which can impact recruitment)

State schools will also struggle to pay these contributions as not fully funded by the Government. Will be interesting to see if Academies opt out of the scheme too, if they can. Which won’t help recruitment

Some people will reach a limit with private fees with the extra tax. It’s not that hard to understand.

They’ll switch to state and likely use those freed up funds to access the top state schools.