To think Brits dislike success?

[garlicmashpotatoes]

After many years of reading comments from posters on MumsNet and other forums, I get the impression that many Brits cannot stand to see people who have 'more than them' or achieve 'success' when they've worked hard to do so.

In America success is celebrated, and aspired to. Whereas in the UK it's often looked down upon.

Why?

I'm quite happy to celebrate others success - especially when it's over adversity, what I don't understand is if they're successful, have worked for that and achieved it and are genuinely happy with that, why is there the need to look at those they don't consider as successful as them and be disparaging, find them wanting, make sure they know it's lack of effort?

I wouldn't be considered successful by the standards here, but I do consider that I've been successful in achieving what I have, also against some adversity, if someone has achieved more, then all power to them, but don't look at me and what I've achieved and decide I'm just not good enough and not trying hard enough because I haven't achieved what you have. Because that's what will lead me to ask if maybe you had some advantages I didn't, some privileges I didn't. If I'm expected to celebrate and admire someone else's success, why do I not deserve the same even though my achievements may be 'smaller' or 'less' than yours.

The thing is that we have a society where "most" people could achieve success if they take the right path and make the right decisions. Look at all the immigrants of the 50s and 60s who came, often with nothing, but had a work and entreprenneurial ethic and whose 2nd and 3rd generations are now running huge businesses, employed at top doctors/consultants, are senior politicians, etc.

I have an entire family who are clients with varied businesses. The patriarch arrived in the 60s and started the stereotypical Asian "corner shop" run entirely by him, his wife, and his children. He ensured his children got the best education they could, made them study hard at school, go to college, etc., and they in turn started small businesses, and the cycle was repeated to the grandchildren, who all went to university, and are now my clients with numerous businesses including internet firms and property development, and are millionaires, and reinvesting their profits into businesses for their children!

We actually do have lots of opportunities in the UK, we have free education, free healthcare, generally good infrastructure, pretty easy routes to set up small businesses with low barriers to entry, etc. If there's a will, there's a way, in the UK, most people could succeed with making the right choices and decisions. (Obviously excluding those with genuine disabilities etc but even people with disabilities are often suited to being self employed!).

Look at that! People demonstrating empathy, and not trying to tear someone down for having more than them. Disgusting isn't it? People who have had shitty life experiences not having a pity party or play Misery Top Trumps.

Define success

Ah Mumsnet Royalty. There's a blast from the past. I guess they were the trailblazers for today's 'influencers'. It wasn't perfect, but spite of the cliques it felt lighter in those days.

I suspect had you posted back then you might have had the odd naysayer but many would have come to share similar stories, rather than dismissing you as a lucky outlier.

Being content with your lot.

Did you miss the the irrational bit?

why is there the need to look at those they don't consider as successful as them and be disparaging, find them wanting, make sure they know it's lack of effort?

Huge assumption. You could live in a cave and on here the will be a stampede to tell you that you are boasting and looking down on those without even a cave.

I was posting back then I have been on here since 2006, it wasn’t as you have described at all and it was pretty supportive of Mums which I don’t see on here now.

and they certainly weren’t a bevy of neoliberals!

Agreed. You would get the odd comment from the usual suspects, but mostly a lot of support. There are still fantastic, supportive people on here, but it's far more peppered with those who immediately leap on a poster with glee, looking to cause upset.

I don't begrudge anyone's success. I do dislike bragging though. I live in a very affluent area (we bought at the 'right' time) and have some quite wealthy friends. Most are just people living their lives, but one is constantly posting photos on social media - legs on a beautiful beach, photos from first class lounges at the airport, photos from private plane, new sports car etc. Not only do I find that a bit ridiculous for a 58 year old man (or woman), it's just reeks of 'look at me', which I personally don't like.

A mutual friend made a snippy comment about how I must have been nice to have all that inherited wealth and I thought that comment was just as unnecessary as someone shoving their wealth all over social media.

It's lovely when people reap the rewards of their hard work. Envy is probably normal, jealousy not so much.

‘Tenets’ of liberty, really? neoliberalism undermines democracy, it doesn’t allow for collective agreements, for regulation to keep people safe like health and safety regulations, to uphold human rights like privacy laws or employment laws that afford employees rights. It eliminates party politics and by default the democratic rights of the population to deliberate over economic policies. How is any of that democratic? If in anything neoliberalism has seen populist and extreme right wing parties thrive as the individual is key? How is this good for ‘liberty’? When you argue British people are down on success, I don’t think they are, I think they are questioning why all of those things have been eroded in the last 20 years or so, when it was fought for so strenuously by some in my parents’ generation. Wealth has always been distributed unevenly, no one expects it not to be but things were a bit more equal in the past with not such a huge disparity between the richest and the poorest in Britain. Things were certainly not perfect by any means but striving for things to be better for everyone is a sign of a democracy, that isn’t what neo-liberalism is and maybe people resent that change! The demise of every class except the rich has happened under this government and their neoliberal ideals, where I lived in London was full of people working in normal jobs and professions, when I think of my brother’s street now the only people who are no super rich are retired teachers- I think that is a shame!

Where was I arguing in favour of neoliberalism?

But why should we all have the same when we all put different levels of effort in?

I have no problem at all with people who want easy lives and are satisfied with a small house in an unpleasant area and are perfectly occupied by going to the pub or watching tv, if they're happy, good for them! It's the people who live this lifestyle miserably while putting in no effort to better it for themselves whilst constantly accusing people who worked hard striving for a better future of being nothing more than lucky, priveledged and undeserving that people find offensive and that is exactly the kind of attitude this thread is about.

Why shouldn't people put more effort in have a nicer life? Why are we all supposed to be embarassed of our nice homes and apologise for our "luck"? This thread is full of people saying even being resilient really is down to luck and we all may as well lie down, accept our lot and hate on anyone who has more than us because they can't possibly have earned it.

The thing is that we have a society where "most" people could achieve success if they take the right path and make the right decisions.

No we don't, that's not how capitalist societies work.

I don’t think British people hate success, we just hate unearned success.

That's not what is being demonstrated here or across MN. Look back at the examples people are holding up as unearned success. For example see the reaction to @whistleblower99's journey to where they are now. 'lucky' and 'outlier' was the response. Was the #metoo movement a dream? Many women have overcome great hardship and trauma to achieve their version of success. It doesn't mean when they talk about it they automatically dismissing others whose version of success looks different to theirs? Or are dismissing those who cannot yet or will never be able to break through barriers to reach other versions of success as outliers. When you respond to someone sharing their story who has made something out of nothing with you are lucky or an outlier you are judging them and dismissing the part they played in their hard earned success.

We actually celebrate success all the time, just look at tv shows like great British bake off and pop idol. Look at our worship of footballers.

It seems we can celebrate them but not people who have overcome, poverty, abuse or any other trauma or obstacle. Another poster up thread had to self teach at school, worked three jobs whilst gaining a Degree, and got a professional qualification. They were also 'lucky'. I guess I should recognise that this is also unearned success.

@Floatingvoternolandinsight You are so disingenuous. I congratulated her on her success and said she is an outlier. Because she is. Most people who are homeless at 16 can not become amongst the wealthiest. But I absolutely acknowledged her success against the odds.
I think a lot of rich people have a chip on their shoulder. They want everyone to acknowledge their richness and success. As if they were famous footballers. I wonder if this as a result of the well known snobbiness of the aristocracy who absolutely do look down on people who have earned lots of money?

You’re frothing away about things that nobody has actually said. Nobody has said that it’s just luck, just that luck and circumstances play a part. ‘Outlier’ means an exception, which is hardly an insult but you seem intent on seeing it as such. Your characterisation of people who disagree with you as too thick to vote, holding ‘pity parties’ etc is just unpleasant minimising, you know, the very thing you’re complaining of. You can’t have it both ways. I’m genuinely perplexed as to why the privileged in this country continue to view themselves as self made and more deserving than others who work just as hard and yet get nowhere.

@taxguru again I see Asian success being brought up- I don't disagree with you at all- but it isa different cultural way of thinking - times apparently are changing but traditionally it has involved lots of sharing resources within an extended family - be that money or housing and upwards as well as downwards in a family. That's just not how most British mentality has tended to work- we don't tend to want parents living with us or have adults and partners in their 40s living at home and an awful lot of British parents in their 60s plus aren't flash with the cash when it comes to helping out younger family members for housing or businesses (some are I know- but until recently it hasn't been the norm) pressures on housing and costs have made it a little more common

It has meant that many young Asian people have been able to save for homes and businesses in a way that's not as easy for others- My parents for instance when I was 18 were busy asking when I was going to move out as I wasn't going to uni and was earning- and lots of my friends were in the same position. No offer of deposits either.

Disingenuous? Me? It was a back-handed congratulation that you made. You could You could have said " Well done. We need see more people being given the tools / supported to achieve their version of success". Success doesn't have to be top 1% of tax payers, it isn't just about money or even about money for some people.

@Floatingvoternolandinsight It has just occurred to me you might not know what outlier means. It means the exception.
So people having chemo for cancer generally have some time off work. I know someone who worked throughout chemo, went straight back to work afterwards and said they felt fine. They were an outlier. I believe them, but I would not use their experience to argue that everyone getting chemo can work.

@Floatingvoternolandinsight you want people who achieve to be congratulated, and to be congratulated in the way you dictate?
And I have said in many many comments that success can take many forms.

When you lead with luck or outlier, or solely focus on those aspect you are trying to diminish the work of others. Only in Britain can saying that you have worked hard for something automatically be interpreted as you meaning the hard work of other means less that yours. You lot are bonkers.

As for the wealthy ones who look down / try to prevent the progress of those with less than them. How is that worse that those that don't have anything/much that trying to stop others from improving their lot?

Batshit Britain is alive and well.

@Floatingvoternolandinsight Yeah you do not understand what the term outlier means. It does not mean what you think it means.