To think Brits dislike success?

[garlicmashpotatoes]

After many years of reading comments from posters on MumsNet and other forums, I get the impression that many Brits cannot stand to see people who have 'more than them' or achieve 'success' when they've worked hard to do so.

In America success is celebrated, and aspired to. Whereas in the UK it's often looked down upon.

Why?

I actually agree with this to a point.

Certainly looking at mine and DHs family history and distant cousins.

It just takes one thing like a father dying early to cause problems. A sister who come from the same background but one was widowed young and doesn't remarry had very different life prospects. Or birth order - being the youngest often had significant advantages to long term futures whereas the eldest often ended up taking on the responsibility of their siblings (especially if parents died)

It would then impact not just on their children but their grandchildren. It seems to be a least two generations before fortunes might reverse.

Equally someone who gets a lucky break by being in the right industry at the right time, might be able to give their children opportunities their cousins couldn't dream of.

Equally though you have families where it's been the same occupation generation after generation. One of DHs direct ancestors was from a coal mining background. He ended up having an affair with a married woman. She got pregnant. They did a runner and settled somewhere else doing something completely different. Turns out it was the best thing he could possibly have done for the long term prospects of the family!

I would say though that you occasionally do find those black sheep who refused to do that and decided to find an alternative path and they often are the very successful ones. It is, to a certain extent, about some one having 'something' about them too rather than just doing what everyone else does / tells them to / is expected of them. The willingness to not conform I do think is something that is overlooked too. This has to be acknowledged that a certain degree of risk taking can be a good thing - as much as it can obviously be a disaster. People who are risk adverse are more likely to just repeat the pattern of their parents and/or peers.

This isn't historically restricted to men either. My family which wasn't terribly wealthy is littered with enterprising women which I really didn't understand or appreciate. The men in this part of the family are really dull and sensible by contrast!

So yes I do think you have much more restricted life chances if you come from a poorer background but I do also think luck and attitude shouldn't be overlooked as not important or something relevant to people from less advantaged backgrounds either.

Been reading for interest, and whilst I acknowledge success can be a combination of hard work and luck, I do not follow this luck argument completely after reading this thread. In fact, its turned me against it.

How can you even tell what 'luck' or 'privilege' every individual you meet has? Do you know their entire life story, their genetic makeup and have an understanding of every engagement they have had? Do you assign a point system to each thing? How do you know someone from a private school hasn't had a terrible upbringing? Are you assuming, rather terribly, that people from poorer backgrounds have had a terrible upbringing? Or are you making snap judgements based on stereotypes to form your opinion?

What is the argument for even trying to achieve something if it's all down to luck and privilege? Does that mean fate exists?

No one said it’s ONLY about luck. Hard work does matter. The point being is people saying it’s not about luck it’s about resilience. But resilience in itself is luck, luck with your genes, luck with your environment, luck with people who support you. Resilience is built under the right conditions and just because someone isn’t quite so resilient as someone else, are they less of a person who deserves the shit in their lives?

The only people judging others to be lacking are the entitled pity party parade. Only they can decide who is lucky. Only they can decide who is worthy. Only they can decide what is triggering. Only then can claim to suffer the misery of miseries. Really?

I am neither better nor worse than anyone else but I am certainly not going to bow down to a pity party.

😂😂😂 okay!

Of course British people dislike success - in others.
Posh is a pejorative term.
At the same time the “underdog makes good” narrative is lauded. But if the underdog’s kids go to Eton - well, then it’s time to be brought down a peg or two.
Success is unfair, we hate unfairness.

You're conflating two things: whether people have certain criteria enabling them to succeed in whatever way MN defines success and whether people who haven't succeeded by whatever definition you have chosen deserve the life they have. The answer to the first question has no bearing on the answer to the second question.

Everything is about what you yourself do, and luck.
So are your children doing well? Partly down to your parenting and partly luch as there are other factors.
Is your marriage doing well? Partly who you choose to marry, how you communicate, and partly luck and background.
Everything is a mixture of both.
DH and I have been married for years. We have a good relationship. But we were both brought up by parents with good marriages. So we have seen friends doing things in their marriages that have surprised us. Not respecting privacy, poor communication, etc. We did not make a decision about those things, we instinctively knew them as we had learned from both our parents marriages. That was luck.

Ditto

I don't begrudge what others have or envy them

I lived in the US for a few years and it was the most distinct difference in culture..the celebration of success is widely and universally adopted.

It was so refreshing to live somewhere that does not have a race to the bottom mentality.

It was also tangible to see the difference on returning to the UK where successful people always have to hide or play down their successes or be vilified.

Even here on this thread some show such disdain and contempt for those who have a degree of success that they don't posses themselves.

Imho the harder and SMARTER (ordinary people) work the more successful they can be.
Few countries in the world offer better opportunities for adult education at reasonable or little cost allowing most to improve their lot if they choose.

Of course grit, determination and being fully prepared to do what most won't do, ie work two jobs for years/ do years of night school/work for free to gain experience/choose well paying careers/ save every penny to invest....will see some individuals turn even the worst start in life into success and others not

The poster back thread with severe endometriosis is a classic example. Her success is down to her grit and determination against harsh odds.

Sadly many always want to blame the 'system' for holding them back yet if you look at serial entrepeneurs, there are many failures along the way but they blame no one else for these. They just work hard to turn their luck around as many times as they need to.
Of course there are those with unimaginable disadvantages such as serious ill health or heavy caring responsibilities who do not have the same options, and deserve to be very well supported by the state.

@squirrelnutkin10 working more than 48 hours a week for more than a year has a negative impact on health. There is lots of research on this. Do it if you want to, but it is not a situation to aspire to.
And there are plenty of poor and pissed off people in the US. They are just ridiculed.

That is shocking, but I'm not surprised.

I absolutely have zero time for people who throw pity parties and say resilience is down to luck. Like fuck it is.

I had an appalling childhood. Poverty, abuse and In as homeless and alone at 16. The perp is in prison. All provable but then I’d be in contempt of court for identifying myself as I have lifelong anonymity.

No social services or people with benefits to help you back then. Literally sink or swim. I got myself a job, dropped out of college and rented a grotty bedsit. How that even passed checks I don’t know as I was under 18. Fell pregnant disabled child and domestic violence. You know the cycle of abuse. Hard to break. Resilience. I had no-one. Resilience is down to luck? Like fuck it is.

What I did then was still work, go to evening school and retrain. Signed up to the local SEN parents network for support/childcare. Over the years I kept adding to my education. Now in a top 1% of households. People will tell me that my child wasn’t disabled enough and that’s how I did it. Honestly, such perverse attitudes.

People will say - I don’t believe you. I don’t care if you do or don’t. It’s much easier to sit there and wallow about unfairness. Much harder to address what you can do about it. We are lucky in this country in the respect that there are options to pull yourself up if you want. Most people don’t want to as it’s easier to fester on UC moaning how hard it all is.

If people spent less time banging on about how unfair it is you have to work in life to be successful; pulling up everything bad. They may, just may find life outside of getting angry on the internet and having a more fulfilling life.

This is exactly the kind of grit that should be celebrated! And the fact that people will just turn it round to "you are lucky to be resilient" instead of being inspired to wirk harder to better themselves demonstrates the crab bucket mentality this country has. People should be inspired not jealous, and you are absoloutely right that this country has so many avenues for self betterment open to all who want to utilise them is a real priveledge that is not available in other countries. The fact that people wont take these opportunities and want to wallow in the imagined unfairness of it all is pitiful and depressing.

Jesus wept. My mum was a single parent and had about 8 jobs. I have two degrees because she encouraged me at every turn. I have worked all my life and never claimed benefits but that doesn’t mean I don’t have any empathy for those who do. It’s really fucking easy to talk about ‘pity parties’ ‘grit’ and ‘determination’. It’s actually a very toxic way of thinking. The truth is that whilst there may be outliers, and those who do overcome against the odds are to be celebrated, it’s about as likely as winning the lottery for an ordinary person born into deprivation to achieve power or influence in this country. Living day to day, keeping a roof over their heads and feeding themselves is a struggle for millions of people. Telling them to have more ‘grit’ and to ‘work harder’ is a massive insult.

@JimmyGrimble I have worked for every penny since I was 18. No hand outs ever. We own our own home and can afford to go on holiday and have days out. We are not rich, but we are more comfortable than I ever thought I would be.

I think it's hard to dispute that if your parents are well off and connected all you have to do is not "cock things up". If they aren't, your route to success will require a lot more from you.

But do you not realise that you’re lucky that you managed to get through against all odds, that you found it within yourself to do that?

Not everyone is the same and will handle things in the same way, because of many, many factors. Your personality and your genes that enabled you to have the strength to fight through all that is luck. Or do you think that anyone who has been through similar and hasn’t ended up the way you have (which will be the majority) deserve it? If it’s not luck, then what is it? You didn’t ask to be born with that grit, you just were.

Not everyone can be successful, but you keep telling yourself otherwise if it helps you feel superior 😁 Hard work matters, but there is an element of luck and circumstance, whether you acknowledge it or not.

There was also an element of ‘’luck’’ passing checks for your grotty bedsit if you were under 18, there was an element of ‘’luck’’ in managing to access SEN support, in getting accepted at uni etc.

@whistleblower99 you are an outlier. Well done. But you need to accept that not everyone is capable of that.

*Been reading for interest, and whilst I acknowledge success can be a combination of hard work and luck, I do not follow this luck argument completely after reading this thread. In fact, its turned me against it.

How can you even tell what 'luck' or 'privilege' every individual you meet has? Do you know their entire life story, their genetic makeup and have an understanding of every engagement they have had? Do you assign a point system to each thing? How do you know someone from a private school hasn't had a terrible upbringing? Are you assuming, rather terribly, that people from poorer backgrounds have had a terrible upbringing? Or are you making snap judgements based on stereotypes to form your opinion?

What is the argument for even trying to achieve something if it's all down to luck and privilege? Does that mean fate exists?*

In real life I don't know any of that. Because frankly, I don't care. First of all because I don't assign value to people based on what they earn/what they have/what job they do ,secondly, because if they're my friends/family , I care about them and I'm happy for all their successes and achievements, whatever form they take and thirdly, because overall I'm quite content and satisfied with my lot in life. So it doesn't matter to me if John gets millions in bonuses because he developed an innovative software at 16 or because he's Eton educated and from a wealthy family. I'll even listen to him complain about struggling with money because of x or y.Or whether Jenny got her 6 bedroom 3 bathrooms six house by scraping and saving and working hard at her job or because her parents gifted her the deposit. Mostly because they're not being twats about what they have and how they got there.

On here, it's different mostly because of disparaging comment from the "hard workers". Apparently lucky is insulting but lazy, unwilling, pity party, victim mentality etc isn't. The irony...

In real life I congratulate everyone on their achievements. Whether they came easily or not, I recognise them all.
But I also recognise for some people I am close to, it is a larger struggle to achieve some things. Just think of it logically. A friend who is used to giving speeches and does a good speech, you would say it was a great speech. A friend who has never done a speech and is very nervous beforehand, you would give much more praise to. Because you recognise this was really hard for them.
We all behave like this in real life. In small ways we do recognise the differences in achievements. So if my DD got all Cs in her exams I would think she had not worked hard enough. But for some children all Cs is a massive achievement and requires a lot of hard work.

Unless you are the kind of arsehole who demands your children have As for everything irrespective of any SEN or ability to academically achieve.

@whistleblower99

You lucky, lucky outlier. 😂😂😂

I know such luck. Despite more tragedy and abuse than people will ever have in their lives - I’m lucky. So lucky. Nothing to do with hard work, a strong work ethic and everything else. I do wonder if it is also because society was not as generous then. You had to step up or sink.

So lucky to have done well; nothing to do with my own hard work. Nope - all just handed to me on a plate. Honestly, some fucking people. Absolutely disgraceful. If they stopped for a minute to listen to themselves - they realise how fucking ridiculous they sound. Sums up this thread and the majority of the country.