To think Brits dislike success?

[garlicmashpotatoes]

After many years of reading comments from posters on MumsNet and other forums, I get the impression that many Brits cannot stand to see people who have 'more than them' or achieve 'success' when they've worked hard to do so.

In America success is celebrated, and aspired to. Whereas in the UK it's often looked down upon.

Why?

I agree that work ethic in some cultures is more prominent. In the past some of the most hard working individuals I knew were immigrants. I assume it’s because they see education as a way out of poverty, that’s even more important if you come from a country where there is little state help or opportunities.

The luck in this scenario is getting here in the first place, being allowed to settle and stay here. How many people want to come and live here but they can’t for various reasons.

Exactly, you’ve just illustrated my point perfectly!! I’m lucky for all the reasons you’ve described, as are you and the other millions of people lucky enough to be here, considering the atrocities happening all over the world at the moment.

No one is dismissing someone who has worked hard to get themselves out of poverty, it’s obviously brilliant and to be applauded, however….. It’s a very simplistic view to assume that sheer hard work and determination is always enough. If someone hasn’t got the cognitive abilities in the first place, life will never be as easy for them regardless of work ethic.

A case in point is the resentment towards people in London who have so much money and how unfair it is.

I and my friends come from European countries that offer a lot of opportunities like free higher education, free childcare, free healthcare and good economy. All my female friends "back home" are more successful then me because they could easily afford higher education and continued their careers after having children due to very family friendly polices.

I think UK is very attractive but social mobility here is hard and especially for women there are real barriers when they become mothers. I don't find it particularly easier here , I just ignore disadvantages and focus on things I like about the place, which are many.

I think in case of my home country the work ethics come from system that highly rewards work and gives more equal opportunities, not from poverty.

I agree with what you say. Years ago I worked with some women who were from
Poland and they were so hardworking. I also went to University with a Polish lady and she ended up getting a first class degree, which I thought was incredible considering English wasn’t her first language.

What they did tell me was that they used to send their money home as it could buy them so much more. I believe one lady had saved enough money to build her own house and she went back to Poland to do just that. If she’d have stayed here, she’d have been lucky to buy a one bed flat!

Things have changed here for the worse over the last few years. I feel sorry for the younger generations as the cost of living is beyond ridiculous now and even if free movement was allowed again, I don’t think it would be as attractive here these days in the way it once was.

Imo there has to be a balance. Yes, some people will have more advantages than others, more luck, but to focus solely on that is to deny personal agency. At some point we have to take responsibility for our lives and our own choices.

The ‘victim of circumstance’ narrative can entrench a very defeatist attitudes in people, and not only discourage any attempt to better their own circumstances, but encourages resentment towards those that do. You see it on threads on here where someone is the only one in their family to go to university/get a well paid job/‘move up in the wield’, and as a result have to deal with their family denigrating them for ‘getting above themselves’. Any mention of doing or having something that costs more than the barest minimum is perceived as ‘bragging’ even if an OP is specifically asking for input from those that have or do that thing.

There seems to be a desire from some to shut up and cut down anyone that doesn’t have the least, as if no one should be able to speak on their lives without paying lip service to ‘privilege’.

Nobody is denying personal agency. We all have to make the best of the hand we have been given in life. And most people know that.
It is just some very well off people refuse to even recognise that different people are dealt different hands, so making the best of it has different outcomes.

That's horrendous. Your Dad sounds great.

@Ciderlout why do you think Labour aren't committing to rejoining EU at this stage? It would be an easy economic gain for them. Reason is They would get a brain drain of middle and higher earner tax payers who have the ability to work from anywhere - the Tory's have trashed things so much there really is that risk - and the EU people will no longer be rushing here either to replace those people- they have realised other places have lots to offer and Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands and some bits of Germany and Spain you can get away without thelocal language too

I disagree, I think people do deny personal agency at times. It’s often easier to blame X or Y than it is to take responsibility for your own bad decisions.

I don’t think well off people, or indeed just people, refuse to recognise it. Not agreeing as to the degree to which bad circumstances must define someone and/or be to blame for every bad thing that happens to them isn’t the same thing as not recognising that they have an impact.

@InterIgnis I disagree. People do recognise personal agency. They recognise like me they grew up in a slum, but did not turn to a life of crime. Or had a shit childhood, but did not become a drug addict. Or were sexually abused but did not become a paedophile.
They also recognise when you have a had start in life it is not that easy to become rich. It just is not.

Many do, yes, but many also don’t.

I didn’t say it was easy. What I said is that a hard start in life doesn’t have to define someone, and it isn’t always ‘to blame’ for every perceived failing.

@InterIgnis Recognising the impact it has is very different from letting it define someone.
Honestly you seem pretty clueless about the realities of many people's lives.

I said just that above. Bad circumstances don’t have to define your life, but ime there are those that blame bad circumstances instead of taking responsibility for their own choices, and resent those around them that they perceive as doing better.

and yes, I am clueless as to the realities of many peoples lives. Why wouldn’t I be? I have no idea what it’s like to grow up on a shanty town in Brazil, or live in abject poverty in South Sudan. I don’t know what it’s like to be a member of the British aristocracy. Conversely, many people don’t know what it’s like to be born in a country that doesn’t exist any more, or what it’s like to be in a city as it’s being bombed. I don’t expect them to, and I don’t believe they have to 🤷🏻‍♀️

@InterIgnis some resentment in such an unequal country is inevitable. It does not men most people do not try and make their own life better.
I resent Boris Johnsons success as Prime Minister. He is not hard working or smart and did not deserve that. It was because he was born into a rich family, had the right connections, and being ammoral probably helped.

I don’t think it’s a desirous trait to encourage, or leave unchallenged, when it’s expressed by denigrating people and cutting them down not because they’ve done anything wrong, or because of their character, but solely because they’re in a better financial position and you don’t like it.

@InterIgnis what is your background?

I'm an immigrant. I have plenty of immigrant friends who managed to get on property ladder, some near London. All started in minimum wage jobs, speaking little language, no help from parents whatsoever and many actually sent money back to their parents to support them. Some finished universities , some opened their businesses, all without "privilege ".
It comes down to cultural differences.

@Bibi12 I don’t really understand your point? I never said everyone who gets on the ladder has help? I was just acknowledging that family help particularly where I live in London makes a big difference.
What cultural differences are you referring to? Im a 2nd gen immigrant as are most of my friends. That’s why our parents settled in certain parts of London, it was cheap!

I was referring to you saying you don't know anyone who got on property ladder without help from their parents. I was just offering different experience as I know plenty.

Being 2nd gen immigrant of homeowners parents it's not the same as being actual immigrant.

Cultural differences become very clear when you were raised in a different country but a lot of it comes down to systematic differences like lack of affordable education or childcare.

@Bibi12 I don’t personally, likely because I’m a millennial and a Londoner. Obviously my parents did it as did many of our neighbours, also a lot more social housing then. And I’m fully aware that people do it without help, I was just acknowledging that the help is a privilege.

Being 2nd gen immigrant of homeowners parents it's not the same as being actual immigrant.. I never said it was but culturally having immigrant parents did/does influence me, why wouldn’t it? Not all of my friends parents were homeowners but they had secure tenancies and affordable rent.

For my parents and their friends it was/is culturally very important to get your dc a good education and help them as much as possible eg we have had a lot of childcare help which I don’t see as the norm amongst my English friends.

But the criticism of British attitudes to wealth, the idea that we have a culture of not celebrating success, imo it is not really that; it is more about questioning how that success came about, Britain does have a history of inherited wealth, luck of birth, my parents were part of the 60’s revolution that challenged that, so you are brought up with the ideas of challenging something when it is seemingly unfair or wrong for a better society. It isn’t about not celebrating success, it’s about fairness and equality of opportunity. If you are from a different country where maybe obedience, hierarchy and corruption (not suggesting you are) is rife or even just conservatism with a small c is more revered, then it may appear to be self-wallowing or anti-success but it is not that, it is steeped in a political history of people fighting for certain rights and challenging the establishment. In fact, the class system is highly relevant here and still appears to permeate much of British life. I certainly know quite a few upper middle class people even upper class people that have been afforded an advantage from birth. They have gone to the best schools and I think this is what people are referencing. I do have close family that are outwardly very successful and haven’t had that advantage at all but their whole life has not been as easy as the colleagues born into that privilege. That privilege is a real thing and can be small things like access to amazing work team trips, second properties, not worrying about the price of a very nice lunch, something they probably think everyone has access to, getting tickets given to them for events everyone else has to save for, the list goes on and on!

@Goldenbear my parents were really aware of the above hence why they pushed education hard & helped us onto the ladder

@Goldenbear I agree. When I was very poor I knew people who would holiday in family holiday homes for example. Some of the things others take for granted are a dream for others.

The mortgage rates became insane in recent years. You're right. Most people I know bought their houses few or more years ago before that madness.

In my country childcare is seen as a right rather then privilege and government has a responsibility to provide it or subsidy it. There is very long maternity leave but after that family model is two parents working full time and there is lots of family friendly policies to support that. People take pride in their homes and they cook , clean and tend to their gardens on top of their paid work. There is a culture of efficiency and getting things done so you can go home and spend time with loved ones. No long hours at work etc.

Being on benefits is seen negatively but there is no barriers to work and working does leave you much better off anyway.
A lot of value is attached to education and all children are encouraged to go to university (which is free or affordable) or to attain skills.
It's a different culture but it's also different system. It's much harder here. Especially as a woman.

In my country childcare is seen as a right rather then privilege and government has a responsibility to provide it or subsidy it.

it should be like that here. Because my parents/in-laws helped out it made it a lot easier for me & DH to work & get promotions because we could go above/be available etc. The UK doesn’t invest in young people or young families which doesn’t make sense to me, a more educated, healthier society is beneficial to everyone.