To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

Under EU VAT rules, all educational services are exempt from VAT.

It's ironic that the only reason Labour can now levy VAT on private school fees is because of Brexit.

@SabrinaThwaite

If you google hard, (as the MOD does not like to publish CEA data), you will see following a Government review back in 2010, the annual taxpayer cost for CEA was £180 million.

That delta has grown significantly, as lower ranking personnel now take advantage of this benefit whereas historically, mainly higher ranking personnel did.

Sadly I am not able to share a source as it has come from an individual with access to this data.

The budget includes not only the value/allowance for fees, but also the tax benefit in kind paid on their behalf. Also, any foreign diplomat has their children's boarding fees paid under this scheme, totalling over £30million by itself.

Truthfully, if the CEA scheme was withdrawn you would see many well established prep & private senior schools close virtually overnight. Many claimants are gaming the system, with the children boarding but the Mum (generally) living up the road from the school living her best life!

Yes more costs on tax payers and many of those who would have gone private will take places at better schools and Grammars. Another ill thought out policy. Well it want thought out, is political spite really and is the sort of thing I don't want to see in a party bidding for power.

It's like the NHS. The only way out of this mess is using private capacity as the public sector is so so inefficient. Give tax relief/salary sacrifice on health insurance and let people get treated and free capacity.

@silverneedle

"3%? So not much and I believe it has been rising for last decade so Leunig’s claim private school applications are the second highest in history could still be correct."

You are seeing 3% in isolation and actually 3% in one year is quite a lot plus it's cumulative.

For example let's assume that once announced and introduced VAT on school fees reduces enrolment by 5% each year and that the number of pupils enrolling at private school is initially 100 then :
Year 0 - 97 (after a 3% drop)
Year 1 : 92 (after a 5% drop)
Year 2: 87 (after a 5% drop)
Year 3: 83 (after a 5% drop)
Year 4 : 79 (after a 5% drop)
Year 5 : 75 (after a 5 % drop).

So after 5 years only there are only 75 pupils enrolling each year instead of the previous 100 - so a drop of 25%.

Labour or supporting posters will either try to mislead or simply not understand by claiming that there will only be a drop of 5% or only a minimal number will leave.

That’s correct. It’s against EU law to charge VAT on education.

I don’t think anywhere does

OTH some countries realise a tax rebate lowers the state burden

Sorry but I am reserving my shits to give about things like plans to close yet more Family Hubs and Children's Centres due to budgets than a bit of tax for some rich bods.....

It’s as if people have a special button on their keyboard for this response.

@Marilynmansonsthermos

"Oh please can you all go away, we all know why these anti labour posts are popping up. It’s really obvious, condescending and pathetic. People should refuse to get in a debate with these posters."

Let me translate :

"Oh please can you all go away" - doesn't believe in freedom of speech, cannot consider other viewpoints.

"we all know why these anti labour posts are popping up. It’s really obvious, condescending and pathetic. "

The use of facts, figures and logic that argue that a taxation policy that costs more than it raises and is therefore deeply flawed is an uncomfortable realisation- so let's not talk about it.

"People should refuse to get in a debate with these posters."

cannot or is unable to rationally and logically debate and with such intolerance seeks to shut down the other side of the debate.

to people posting these threads - this is how they come across:

Vote Tory especially if you are rich as we like people like you

We won't raise your taxes and as long as you can afford private education and health and perhaps sone private security and an off road vehicle you'll be fine under us

If we need extra money for a few bombs and rwanda planes , we can take it from the disabled , the state school and education

After all less well off are really stupid and will believe it if you tell them that labour are financially incompetent, and they hopefully they will get cross with labour within 4 years as won't realise that labour will struggle because of the mess we left behind rather than because of their inability , then we can have another 14 years of power

The tories may be socially incompetent , arrogant thieves but hey let's brush that under the carpet shall we?

So leave this thread to the people who are enjoying it and stop pissing on their bonfire.

Visit a state school where the parents are more affluent and you’ll see the positive effect.

A lot of Tory thinking starts and stops at the monetary cost. They (purposely?) fail to acknowledge the ripple effect of systemic changes to lift people up. Look at the cuts made to child and mental health services and the route that sends people down. Tories would rather just bring in harsher sentences, treating the symptoms not the cause. They’re only interested in keeping the status quo and protecting their bubble.

I just heard from a friend with three kids that was coming to the U.K. next year. They have businesses and money and three kids paying for private schools. They decided against it after researching the repercussions. Now are moving to Madrid where they won’t throw their money in the bin. They do not think it would stop here and found the policy a small taste of what is to come. Politics of envy and shortsighted. Populism at its best. How embarrassing!

Visit a state school where the parents are more affluent and you’ll see the positive effect.

In many cases this comes down to selection by house price

The parents you want will spend their extra funds well and choose the best state schools.

The biggest impact will be house price and more competition

There is no point worrying about rich people leaving or not coming to the uk if they end up keeping their wealth to themselves

This isn’t the case, hence multiple countries trying to draw people in.

They try to attract not repel

Mate, we are now almost 10hrs after I replied to you … maybe leave it.

What do you mean by 'state services should be VAT exempt and they aren't'?

Services which are provided by the local authority as part of the local autority's work are generally 'outside the scope' of VAT. This means no VAT at all is applied.

Some services the local authority provides are considered to be provided in competition with other businesses and they have to charge VAT like normal businesses.

So if you ask the local authority to carry out some pest control in your house, that's competetive. You could choose rentokil to come and do it. You'll pay standard VAT. If the council comes and does pest control as an enforcement activity, for public health reasons, it will be outside of scope.

Burial services by local authorities are 'outside of scope'. Cremations are 'exempt' which is the same as for funeral directors snd private crematoriums, because it's considered to be a competetive service.

'Exempt' vat status is a specific category of VAT which is different to being 'outside the scope of VAT' or 'zero rated'. 'Exempt' VAT mainly applies to land transactions (rent etc) and adult education. (Health care as well, according to google, but it's not something I deal with).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/20/vat-private-schools-labour-low-income-kids-tax-bursaries

Nothing screams 'Mumsnet' louder than there being 6 different threads on how horrendous VAT on private schools is going to be.

This is what your upset about.

Not the Tories destroying the NHS, not the corruption, not the ridiculous waste of money of the insane Rwanda plan , not the lies,nit the sewage in our seas and rivers, not the underfunded police ,not the housing crisis or cost of living...

Bloody private schools.

They are "popping" up because there is an election and people discuss the issues that matter to them.
Only Labour supporters ever seek to shut down discussion. The usual insult thrown at anyone who dares to criticise a Labour policy is 'Oh you must be a Tory". Some of the best ones directed at my comments have been "privileged sociopath" and " shall i show you my whole field of fucks i dont give" Doesn't bode well for free speech under Labour if those are the kinda of comments left by its supporters.

@midgetastic

Regardless of whichever party one supports, to introduce a taxation that costs more in implementation than it raises in tax revenue is deeply deeply flawed and should not be supported.

Pure fantasy. There are millions of “invested” parents of children in state education. It makes little difference and a few more will make the square root of fck all difference.

they will however have substantial funds to spend on their children in other ways to help give them an advantage, to get into the best schools, best universities, best jobs.

There will be many state school child that lose out because of this policy.

Most friends I know whose children are in private school, even if the new VAT rule does come in after the election, have all said they will still continue with private education. We sent our son and it was a struggle to pay some years at £12,000 a year but we still found the money as we didn't want to disrupt his education.

Exactly