To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

Is that a representative sample or just 1 or 2?

@Didimum Why do we have to shut up when the left lot have been moaning about the tories for the last 14 years. A silver lining in getting Labour if that hopefully they stop moaning a bit.

@DayDreamer7979

I did Google, although not particularly hard given the answers were provided to HoC questions on CEA funding last year, and in an FOI to the MoD in January 2024.

In the year 2022/23 the cost of CEA to the MoD was £84.59 million covering 4,210 children. (HoC written answer 20 April 2023).

An FOI shows that this figure has remained relative constant at around £80 million - £85 million per year over the last 10 years, with the exception of 2013/14 (£89 million) and 2016/17 (£103.5 million).

As for FDCO CEA payments, in the financial year 2022/23 the cost of CEA was £13.8 million for 514 children in boarding schools in the UK (and £24.13 million to 1188 children in education overseas). (HoC written answer 28 July 2023).

So, the total for CEA payments for children in UK schools for both MoD and FDCO children in UK schools, as provided in written answers to the HoC, is £98.4 million.

If you want to add in the foregone tax and NICs under the CEA policy then HMRC calculates this at around £45 million per year, so that brings the total to £144 million.

Also you didn’t explain your statement the majority of boarders outside of London, are children from military families.

If there are around 51,700 full time boarders outwith London (based on the ISC figures of 66,000 boarding pupils in ISC schools, 2% of these boarders are in London, and overall 80% are full boarders) but the MoD CEA payments only cover 4,210 children and the FDCO payments only cover 514 children, that’s less than 3,000 children?

@SabrinaThwaite you didn't delve deep enough sadly!
A government review from 14 years ago had the value at £180 million, which accounts for all MOD and Government recipients benefiting from this scheme.

Private education is divisive by its very existence - that is half the problem. Nothing is going to make it anymore divisive tbh (either in actual terms or the optics). Those that claim it is usually (not in your case) are leveraging anything they can to make it seem like "bad policy".

Are people not allowed to moan about the most incompetent, self- serving, corrupt, lyjng government in history? Especially given they have spent 14 years utterly destroying the country. Look around you. Brexit is a disaster, the economy is tanked (it was already before Covid before anyone tries to use that excuse), our public services are in ruins and everyone apart from the rich is poorer. Are people just supposed to sit by and ignore that?

Exactly. It's staggering. People need to check their own privilege and then perhaps they might understand why so many hate the Tories.

Are you saying that the Conservative Ministers lied in their written answers to the House of Commons?

Really?

That would be quite scandalous.

I’m not telling you or anyone to shut up. I have said that there are multiple other threads (many, many!) on which to continue having this identical discussion. Several a week for many weeks now. Use those – you might even say it’s economic 😉

The problem is it won't save the Government money.

According to Gov statistics, each state funded student costs £7,690. Assuming private school fees of £15,000 per annum, they raise £3,000 per student. That's a shortfall of over £4,000 per student., so every student leaving private education will cost the Government money.

Then there 'the impact on Independent school employees. Teachers may find work in the 'state sector', but what about the ancilliary staff who could well loose their jobs. - Lost tax revenue and possibly increase in benefits claims.

And Suppliers to the Independent schools who will see a decline in revenues, some may even go out of business. - More lost tax revenues and possibly more people claiming benefits.

And how does the Government propose to exclude Universities. Like Independent schools, Universities hold charitable status, they are private institutions, they provide education and are fee paid. The only difference is the age of the students. Maybe they won't - Labour has already backed off their 2020 election pledge to scrap University Fees.

Best bed for all HUNG PARLIAMENT

I am not anti Labour though, I have never voted Conservative- it is not anti Labour to debate a divisive manifesto proposal- part of having a democracy is being able to share and debate views - it is possible to agree largely with a party but look to debate proposals where you think they have it wrong.

What an odd post that is below. Clicking and posting on a thread you want to ‘go away’

Ps. The "no debate " rhetoric is ideologically driven and does not lead to sensible discourse.

It’s the same misguided belief that if private schools close the teachers will all flock back to the state sector. In my experience this never happens. In fact the vast majority of teachers that leave my dc’s school either go to another independent or alternatively jet off to Dubai for a spot of tax free earning.

This is a bad policy centred around envy and divisiveness that isn’t going to generate anywhere near the amount of income suggested. It’s reminiscent of the NHS slogan buses in the Brexit campaign and is particularly disappointing given that those who use private education are actually saving the state money. I don’t agree that the vast majority of current private school parents will pull their dc out - I think most will cut their cloth and make it work. But it will deter future parents from choosing private education, thus increasing the state education bill in the future.

Labour also don’t seem to be considering that many parents will pay fees up front now to avoid paying VAT in the future which will negate the immediate impact. And many schools, at least the two that my dc attend, are putting a huge amount of resource into potential retrospective VAT claims on building work. Given that most schools have done far more research into the potential outcomes of this policy than the Labour Party and are very concerned about the impact, particularly on smaller independent schools but across the board, this at least could be a welcome benefit.

We’ve been thinking about this over the last few weeks, and we have now decided to send our final DC at private school, to state 6th Form College. It is a good college, and I’m sure the work ethic my DC has will stand him in good stead. My DC is more than happy to go there, his friends’ parents are saying the same, so it isn’t an issue for us.

So, with the new VAT that will save me around £22K a year, £44 over 2 years. I can put that to other use.

To send my DC to state 6th will, at today’s rate, cost the local govt. £5760 a year, £11,520 over 2 years.

So, instead of paying £4K in VAT, I am now getting £11,520 back from the tax I pay.

When I look at it like this, I am actually feeling a lot better about it.

Op from an economic and education perspective it’s a very poor policy

• meant to quote op

@SabrinaThwaite you can make any assumption you like! I'm not a Conservative advocate so that intimation holds zero relevance to me.

The recent values quoted do not take account of all CEA recipients and the total cost.

There is circa 10,000 - 14,000 children benefiting from this fund, across every department, including those who are having fees paid at schools abroad.

There is a distinction between full time boarders and weekly boarders. Most boarders are weekly (although described as full time as opposed to occasional up to 3 days per week). MOD families pay termly boarding fees, and make up the larger percentage of total boarders in most prep and senior schools outside London.

That Government review 14/15 years ago had a delta of £180million. At that time the majority of claimants were higher ranking officers. Today many MOD families have caught onto the fact they can receive private schooling not just officers.

The point is, with legacy VAT rebates which will be due immediately, ongoing VAT reclaim on expenditure and additional costs not quantified (such as the increase in CEA payments or indeed attrition to state), this policy will ultimately cost more than it will generate in net additional income.

Labour knows this position will appeal to a broad base as a soundbite, the majority of which will not investigate the nuance of net fiscal gain.

I am in favour of policies which allow investment into under resourced state sectors, but this isn't one of them in my view.

We can agree to disagree.

@DayDreamer7979

If you mean this 2010 review then you haven’t actually considered that it was to set a baseline to cut CEA payments to Military personnel.

Which it seems to have done to some extent (not cutting it half yet though).

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/review-of-continuity-of-education-allowance-concludes

This reduction in need, together with the savings from the governance changes already being implemented, is expected to reduce expenditure on CEA by at least half by 2020 compared with the baseline established at the Strategic Defence and Security Review.

CEA costs about £180m a year to support the 7,900 children of about 5,500 Service claimants; about £70m of this is to settle the tax liability that would otherwise be incurred by claimants serving in the UK.

So, we’ve gone from 7,900 military children on CEA costing £180 million including £70m in BIK in 2010 to 4,210 military children 2022/23 costing £130 million to include the HMRC BIK figure of £45 million.

I’ve heard mention that children with ehcps will have fees exempt from vat.

totally missed my point… I am not sure what you are trying to say sorry

People are allowed to express opinions on issues that matter to them in the same way that you are. Why on earth would you be si upset about a valid debate?

Fwiw I think it’s patently obvious that Labour have already won this election. I won’t be voting for them (don’t worry, I won’t be voting Conservative either) but I’m allowed to express my concern about something that imo is a bad policy.

Labour knows this position will appeal to a broad base as a soundbite, the majority of which will not investigate the nuance of net fiscal gain.

I am in favour of policies which allow investment into under resourced state sectors, but this isn't one of them in my view.

Yes this is the issue

Somewhere back in the mists of time political parties had ideological beliefs. Decisions not always made for financial reasons but to meet the underlying tenets of the party.

I would say that the VAT and private schools represents a return to this mode of politics and is no bad thing. These days we are encouraged to think short term and for individual rather than collective gain. Politics has got very selfish.

Ideally the Labour Party would have the conviction of their beliefs and say they are going to ban private schools outright. However we live in a society where money buys choice and it is difficult to change that philosophy overnight.

It doesn't matter to me whether the numbers add up but that we, as a nation, will be working towards a more fair society.

Baby steps.

@OvalLemon "totally missed my point… I am not sure what you are trying to say sorry"

There's not been one sensible response to my suggestion that private schools cut costs in order to reduce fees if they believe that VAT imposition will make their school unaffordable for local parents.

Your point was that nobody will send their children to private schools if class sizes were increased.

My point is that private schools could increase class sizes considerably and still have classes much smaller than their local average state school, and they'd still be able to exclude poor, low achieving children - and therefore will still have appeal to parents keen to keep their children from coming into contact with the educational fallout of severe social disadvantage.

You say you don't understand the point being made but I don't know how to explain it any other way.