To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

@Morph22010

"Everyone wants the rich people sending kids to Eaton and harrow fo pay more"

Ironically it will be the rich people sending kids to Eton and Harrow that will not be paying more it is the well off but not super rich who will be paying more.

Why did you choose private?

I agree with @jeaux90 and as someone who chooses state class size is something I’d like to see go down.

I mean you’ve opted out, it’s state users who are impacted

This is just not true "If your local comp isn't good enough for you, it's not good enough for most." I know so many families who have one kid in a free government school and the other with SEN needs in a private. We did this - in fact I consider my son's free government school provided a better education than my daughter's private school - but my daughter's SEN needs meant she could not cope with the larger class sizes and it was getting to the point of she was having severe mental health problems and not wanting to go to school.

I did like someone else's suggestion though that children with SEN needs in private schools could be VAT exempt. The education system is never going to be able to cater for these SEN kids who need smaller class sizes.

...and I also want to call out the argument that because not all parents with children with SEN needs can afford private than parents with children with SEN needs who can afford private need to be punished and pay even more....what parent does not want to end their children's suffering if they are not coping in a government school environment?

I would rather pay more taxes and have these SEN children whose parents can't afford private put into paid for private places through their ECHPs because that would make more sense to me.

The vast majority of kids with SENs don’t need EHCPs when the system runs properly and private education is the last thing they need. SEN expertise is far better in the state sector.

The major downside to this argument though is that the system isn’t running properly, it is a complete mess and is getting worse as due to the lack of early intervention children’s needs are escalating. it isn’t going to be something that can be turned around in 5 years, will take maybe even longer than 10. Once we have a proper working system for Sen within the state sector then maybe think about vat on fees

Whatever anyone’s thoughts on private schools, this is very naïve and just not true. LAs don’t just refuse to assess or refuse to issue an EHCP based on the legal thresholds. If that was the case, the Tribunal success rate wouldn’t be over 98%.

And if by free advice from the county you mean SENDIASS, well, some are good, but many, many are not. Some are actively unhelpful. Many repeat the LA’s unlawful policies. They receive LA funding so they aren’t truly independent and, ultimately, many toe the party line.

This week alone I have heard “you can’t have an EHCP for a child who is exceeding ARE”, “EHCPs aren’t for 2 year olds”, “the school needs 2 cycles of APDR", "you won't get an EHCP if you are home educating". All what parents have been told by SENDIASS in their different LAs. And that’s just the comments about getting an EHCNA/EHCP. It doesn’t include "they don’t give 1:1 here", "we don’t have EOTAS here", and "they [SALT, OT, and equine assisted therapy] don’t go in F in this LA". All a load of nonsense.

How do you know that? I’m sure the parents deciding here know more about their dc

The private sector has nothing to do with state SEN. EHCPs don’t have vague outcomes with a need being tiny private classes. There are zero private schools in my area that would have met my Dc’s EHCP needs and actually I know quite a few parents who have left the private sector because SEN provision there is so dire.

Because DH and I made that decision and if having made that choice we pay VAT on the fees, fine. It wasn’t to do with class sizes.

Class sizes are not the key issue in state schools if there’s a TA and children with SEN are supported appropriately. The current problem is that the two latter elements aren’t funded near well enough.

For you. You choose to opt out with private

We actually use state and it matters to us.

😂I’m sure lots of people think their children are worthy of a very expensive EHCP which is designed for a few children whose needs schools can’t meet. Thankfully we have a structured state system of people with expertise who decide and an appeals system if necessary. Schools are also being supported more to meet those needs.

EHCPs don’t have vague outcomes with a need being tiny private classes.

This makes absolutely zero sense. Small class sizes is included in some EHCPs because for some it is reasonably required. But it is provision not an outcome or a need.

Just because your DC’s needs wouldn’t have been met in independent schools doesn’t mean no child with SEN requires an independent school.

Oh quit the laughing emojis

It’s children who might struggle you’re crying laughing about

No it’s entitled parents saying their expertise trumps paid professionals and their child should be entitled to a private education via an EHCP.

I still use state currently.

Do you really think a class of 20-22 or so would perform much better than 30?

No other changes - so one teacher, no TA, patchy SEN support. That’s the only change made. Would it make a big difference?

Or would a better difference be 30 kids, a TA in every class and one to one support and appropriate interventions for children with SEN.

Class sizes don’t make the difference you think.

Thankfully we have a structured state system of people with expertise who decide

Obviously you don’t have much experience of SEN teams at the LA. LA’s act unlawfully all the time and many certainly don’t have the expertise.

Wanting their DC to receive what they are legally entitled to doesn’t make parents demanding or entitled. For a wholly independent school to be funded by an EHCP the parent has to prove the LA’s proposed school(s) can’t meet DC’s needs &/or it isn’t unreasonable public expenditure. Parents don’t just rock up and get an independent school funded without actual evidence.

Well you’re opting out so it’s not as relevant to me.

We use it and I know what I would prefer.

Intervention SEN groups or measures which all state schools can provide maybe but a vague small class in the private sector🤔,that is not what the EHCP system is for.

And quite rightly so. It should be extreme circumstances and stay that way.

If a small class size is reasonably required then that is exactly what an EHCP is for.

So because your child has got a ECHP and is being supported properly, you assume it’s the same for all children. What a load of bollocks and a total I’m all right Jack mentality.

It isn’t just extreme situations where this can be proven.

Oh the irony!!!

Most of the private sector doesn’t but I’m talking about specific small private schools that do, thst is what I mean by untended consequences of bringing in a policy. There is a private school down the road from us it is fairly cheaper by private school standards, doesn’t have the grand facilities that some may have but it has smaller classes and is more specific for individual children which you just don’t get in mainstream. The school is almost exclusively made up of low level Sen children that couldn’t manage in mainstream. The trouble is if they are left in mainstream there needs escalate to the point they need ehcp and maybe specialist.

Pretty sure county councils aren’t lining up in their droves to pay massive school fees at a cost to the rest of the SEN sector in non extreme situations.