To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

At the bottom of the private school pile are some small, relatively cheap schools that people end up sending send children to. I don’t mean children with an ehcp but more the ones that are just below thst level or perhaps do need an ehcp but becuase it is so difficult parents decide to pay the school fees rather than paying for private reports/solicitor/advocacy to get the ehcp. These are Eton, harrow with fantastic facilities but just offer smaller classes and more individualised support which is what mainstream schools can’t offer. If people are only just managing then people won’t go for this option they’ll decide to spend the money on fighting for ehcp instead.

“pay the school fees rather than paying for private reports/solicitor/advocacy to get the ehcp. “

You can’t buy an EHCP🙄, they are incredibly fussy about which and how Ed psych reports are written and would not give a shit what a solicitor or advocacy thought. 😂

And a private Ed psych report ( which wouldn’t be used anyway)is a minuscule amount in comparison to £15k a year for the duration of a child’s education.

EHCPs are only given when SEN needs can’t be met, the majority of SEN needs can be met.

Oh I will deal with it, believe me. I won't allow this spiteful policy to affect my child in any way. We have already made huge sacrifices to ensure his needs are met in an independent school and I refuse to let those sacrifices be for nothing or to disrupt his education.

You have no right to hold me in contempt for complaining about it though. Education is not taxed anywhere else in the world. There is a reason for that.

Education is judged on the global scale. And this ill thought through policy will drag this nation further down the list, whilst other nations who honour and respect and value a ‘good education’ over ‘any education’ leave us in the dirt.

Other nations don’t have the inequality we have and have better social mobility.

Newsflash nobody cares other than you. In your very focused privileged bubble are you even aware of the Tories planning to put all our 18 year olds into National Service?

You can’t buy an ehcp, I’m talking about children who should be entitled to an ehcp under current rules but they don’t get one or any support in school as the situation is so dire now. My own son has high needs and is in special school now since year four but initially he was turned down for an ehcp as the la said he could manage in mainstream without any additional funding which clearly he couldn’t or we wouldn’t have been applying for the ehcp. We appealed, got the ehcp, eventually got specialist but it was a long road (which is actually now short by current standards) and took three years. La’s turn down loads of ehcp applications when children clearly have Sen, only option is tribunal, I represented myself but others cannot do this or may choose to pay for solicitor/advocate

I know plenty of children where needs weren’t met in our large local not Sen friendly mainstream primary who have chosen to send their children to a small private school down the road with small classes and more individualised support rather than spend the years waiting to go through the tribunal process for an ehcp, we went down the other route and got the ehcp and is now in specialist, ours is a la maintained specialist but is about £30k per child per year, some of the independent specialists which are used as there are not enough la maintained spaces are around £80k a year, if a parent chooses to fight through tribunal and has enough evidence child can end up in one of those as opposed to small cheap non Sen orivate school which is able to meet needs though smaller classes

Most counties have free support for this. LAs turn down SENs whose needs can be met in school. Only a minority of children with SEN need an EHCP.

The la turn down kids who they say needs can be met in mainstream school with no additional funding , that is very different to kids who needs actually can be met in school with no additional funding. My ds is autistic and he wasn’t managing in mainstream school from year one, it was very clear he needed additional support and things were getting worse to the point he was having huge meltdowns and throwing things around, the class was having to be evacuated etc. yet when school applied for an ehcp the la said his needs can be met in mainstream school without an ehcp, clearly they couldn’t as they’d already been trying for over a year and things were getting worse. We got ehcp after tribunal and he’s now in specialist and doing well, much more settled and much less meltdowns, he wouldn’t have lasted a day in secondary the gap has widened even more as he’s got older. I know of kids who are non verbal, still in nappies, quite severe learning difficulties who are now being pushed into mainstream by the la as there is such a push at the minute to lower the number of ehcps and kids in specialist placements.

Yes there is a push to ensure needs are met in schools. That is a good thing. There is an issue with lots of children starting school without the basic skills still in nappies. Many don’t need specialist education and will make fantastic progress.

This is completely true of private schools as well. No queue jumping, lots of people come from other countries 🙄

I doubt you’ll get what your after.

Not from this policy anyway. It won’t improve inequality just down level education and shift some ex private school parents to the best state schools.

It’s a prop for the GE and not much more.

I’m not talking a about children whose parents haven’t toilet trained them becuase they can’t be arsed I’m talking about children with learning difficulties with no understanding and are non verbal so will perhaps always be in nappies or will be to a much older age. Having had a child with far lower level Sen in mainstream I can tell you they will not make fantastic progress and it is horrible having to have a child in a school where the school can’t cope with them and doesn’t want them there, I regularly got old by the head that mainstream schools were busy noisy places and if a child couldn’t cope with that they shouldn’t be in one yet the la saw fit to say that needs could be met in mainstream, far from fantastic progress we saw deterioration.

Factually incorrect about wealthy equality:

https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/04/01/wealth-inequality-where-in-europe-is-wealth-most-unfairly-distributed?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0M16MlDJ0PfsZCAP9xJJZvQ0AIqoAXOQ8snXBB-VQKlr0xXzcq2FjNA9k_aem_ASTXZGcFsc2SIVqRjvkgyGrihypXGfH1oFKG0PGAG2gFlPE7VDJ67r_9xz5mZ_ji-6N35ziJZoQFG0XhwOg63lbA

Labour scrapped 2 of the biggest things for social mobiloty: grammar schools and the maintenance grant. Grammar was the very system through which Starmer was able to climb up.
It was Labour who introduced tuition fees.

The grammar system was awful and needed to go. Tuition fees were much needed. They were right on both counts.

Make sen provision via private schools VAT free. Fix sen provision. The policy isn't wrong, it's the implementation that needs nuancing. Sen provision is woeful, no doubt about that, but the whole sen system needs a complete overhaul not just tinkering at the edges. Loads of sen kids and their parents are being failed who don't have the option of affording private fees.

The size of the 'problem' of a mass exodus of privately educated children into state schools is massively overstated. The reality is that it will affect a tiny proportion of those who most likely live in London and claim they're on the poverty line due to the choices they've made. If your local comp isn't good enough for you, it's not good enough for most. Most people have had to make cutbacks in life, made sacrifices. Some even have two or three jobs just to feed and house their families.

This policy will attract a lot of noise and hyperbole because nobody likes paying more, but the reality is that the money will be found. And who knows, for any who do end up being pushed to use your local comp, perhaps you'll join the rest of us and shout louder, demanding better standards of education and properly resourced classrooms.

That is exactly what I am saying - private healthcare if given by an employer is a taxable benefit from an employee's income . Private education if given by an employer would be a taxable benefit from an employee's income.

This is a separate taxation to VAT, where both private healthcare and private education are currently exempt from VAT.

I agree- in my op I said that the something more proportionate is needed - so means tested vat relief which would include the families of dc with SEN imo.

What’s the cut of for Sen though, how severe does it have to be? Private schools have a much higher percentage of pupils that receive special accommodations for GCSEs/ a levels than state schools. This isn’t becuase there are more Sen children in the independent sector but becuase they are perhaps better at identifying due to the smaller classes and applying for the special arrangements. Vat exemption for any sen would lead to more identification of sen however mild. Everyone wants the rich people sending kids to Eaton and harrow fo pay more but the whole thing is such a bloody minefield to try and get to work exactly as people want, there’s too many unintended consequences.

Because I do use state schools. All of the DC went to state for primary. I’m also closely involved with another state school.

Class sizes aren’t the issue. Lack of funding in school (for SEN and TAs etc) and poverty outside school are the issues that need fixing.

I agree OP if just 20% moved to state sector it would cost taxpayers more to implement VAT

I will have to suck the rise up, DD15 with ASD and ADHD can't cope with the large class sizes etc in the state system. She got through state primary, massively behind etc

I am always astounded by the race to the bottom. Some state schools are amazing and work well for NT children.

But I think the most unfair thing you can do sometimes is treat everyone the same. Some children need a different education setting and that's ok.

@LittleBearPad class sizes are absolutely a problem for SEN kids sorry I massively disagree

@twistyizzy how do you feel about sending your teens to do national service ?