To think taxing private schools...

[maddening]

I have no skin in the game, my dc is at a secondary state school. I have no strong views on private schools - although I think state should offer the same level for all dc.

However, looking at the maths I am not convinced the cost and benefits of this proposal works out - apparently vat will bring in 1.3 billion - however if the 554,000 children in private schools had to be schooled in state schools that would cost 4 billion - aibu to think this is not the win that many are led to believe? It is more divisive imo and driven by ideology.

If the private school parents are saving the state 4 billion a year then I don't have an issue with the vat personally.

I think that there could be more requirements placed on private schools in order to retain the vat free status, such as sharing facilities with local state schools and more subsidised places perhaps, or means tested vat relief for parents?

You can always find someone whose plight is worse than yours. If you had been through what I and other parents have been through in trying to find suitable provision for kids with SN, only to find it’s going to be made unaffordable because of Labour spite, you might not be so blasé

Who cares?

I'm sorry that you feel unhappy but I honestly don't care and that's the truth. I'm saying that so you realise that most other people don't care either. We've been fucked arse over tit by the most venal corrupt government the UK has had since the 1930s, we've lost all our money and our European citizenship. Most of us have had catastrophic drops in our living standards and for the vast majority of people in this country private education is like fucking la la land in that considerations about it just don't exist for us, because we are already operating at a way lower level than any of you could ever imagine. We are not part of your mechanism. We want a government that will do its best to ameliorate some fraction of the socio-economic harm done to us and our households and yes, tidying up tax breaks is part of that.

Labour spite, Tory spite 🤷🏻‍♂️all according to perspective.
Can the UK tax anyone then without fear of a backlash ? Like when Theresa May included a manifesto policy to get people to contribute to their social care by selling their homes, that was undoubtedly deemed as spiteful and a ‘grey’ tax (even though they could keep many thousands more of the proceeds of sale). In reality a good idea but many felt picked on and they voted elsewhere.

I wonder how you would feel if I said that, as a parent looking at the prospect of the educational arrangements I have worked so hard to set up for my autistic son going to shit, I don’t care about the problems you have described here?

Standard

@Motheroffourdragons

"No it’s not dumb if you believe a luxury good should be subject to vat"

OK - I think we are getting to the nub of it.

So you would happily support a tax that raised say £100 in tax revenue but cost £120 to collect leaving overall tax revenues down by £20 and all taxpayers worse off just in order to discourage someone from purchasing a luxury goods that most other people can't afford.

And that is precisely why it's the politics of envy and not sensible fiscal policy.

I mean, I wouldn’t say that. It would be silly and needlessly offensive(although I am slightly wondering how the government managed to make you lose all your money, but park that for now). I just wonder why some people are allowed to say other people’s problems don’t count, that’s all.

I have my priorities, you have yours. It's not baffling.

And again you make assumptions about me and other private school parents…I grew up in poverty so I am quite aware of people operating at a lower level as you put it. It’s sad that you don’t care about all children as I do as they will be the ones that ultimately suffer. This policy will do nothing to improve state schools and may actually cost the taxpayer rather than generating any revenue. A VAT exemption is not a tax break.

so I wonder then what the point of ostentatiously telling people you don’t care about their priorities is? If it’s a given that we all have our own and vote accordingly, which I think we can all agree with.
unless you just wanted to cause offence and upset?

Just to illustrate the many reasons most people don't share your priorities, so it's not going to be a vote loser/winner, regardless of the amount of threads on here about it.

I think people understand that not everyone has the same priorities. It’s kind of obvious. You went further and felt the need to tell us all how you didn’t care about other people’s concerns. I’m curious as to why you felt the need to do that, and how you would feel if I or others ridiculed the concerns and worries you have set out in a similar manner. Would that be ok?

Yep, fine.

@Moreorlessmentallystable

"Private healthcare paid by an employer for example, is a taxable benefit. My company pays £1000 to AXA, and I get taxed on that £1000 as if it was income."

I don't understand the point you are making. If private education was paid for by an employer it would also be a taxable benefit.

What we are discussing is VAT and currently both private healthcare and private education are tax free. The Labour proposal is to introduce VAT on private education whilst private healthcare would continue to be VAT free.

So people telling other people that their heartfelt and genuine concerns and worries are not worth caring about it is a good way to conduct debate, then?

As a normal family with 2 kids in private school, not keen on this policy at all! I just find it strange that we have chosen to pay for our children's education rather than expecting the tax payer to, but then we need to pay an extra 20% in tax!?

Questionable if it will actually end up net positive. So why??

Rich people won't even notice it's the normal families who will struggle, and most will suck it up I suspect. Less people will put their kids in private schools in the first place going forward, putting more strain on state schools. It doesn't make any sense.

@1dayatatime healthcare already is - it’s a taxable benefit in P11d.

I have a foot in both camps I guess. Eldest went to state secondary. We are lucky and have a good one close by.
Second child ended up at a private secondary - for a specific reason, and one that caught us off guard - it was a really difficult decision to make when there was a free state school right there!
Third child will start at the same state secondary as eldest soon.

Second child is only there because of scholarships and bursaries - we still have to pay, just nothing like full fees. We can't even really afford that being honest so these moves have worried me since they started to be talked about. However, they leave in a few weeks so if it does happen, we will just miss it. If it hadn't, we'd have had to withdraw them. No way we could pay more. And while probably the majority wouldn't be affected because they're pretty loaded, I do feel for the kids who just wouldn't afford it if VAT is added. Those are generally the kids who are there for a reason in my experience - and yes, being there makes them privileged. But there are a decent sized group of pupils who are from a very different background to your typical jolly hockey sticks image of private school.

what's needed is for the state system to be better balanced, i find it hard to believe the state school(s) in the lambeth borough offer the same environment for learning as a school in older mining villages (i'm a huge fan of tiny schools).
and i think the variations within the state system makes this discussion difficult.
from what i read some of the state schools need serious help in delivering basic education with an increasing number of children diagnosed with sen and those displaying frustration and behavioral issues.
grammar schools are not equally available to all regions (is there any in inner london?).
it's not going to be the small group of private students that are transferred into state education that are going to change the behemoth education system.
and i don't think the money generated by vat will make a difference for the current generation of children in education, or change the fact that those children that grow up in wealthier families have an easier path.

Benefits paid for by an employer are taxed as income through the P11D. If an employer paid for an employee’s school fees, that would be taxed as income as well. We are paying school fees out of income which has already been taxed.

This policy is to do with VAT though. Private healthcare is not generally subject to VAT. I think you’re confusing income tax and VAT.

We couldn't tax Education before Brexit because it was illegal to do do. Only Brexit has allowed us to do so.

“from what i read some of the state schools need serious help in delivering basic education”

care to link. The standards set for state schools
are high and they are robustly regulated by Ofsted.

But it isn't a tax break. Private parents already pay tax plus we remove the burden from the state. Bearing mind a majority will be higher tax payers and that we save the state £400 billion per year you need want to tax us again?
Obviously you have bought into Labour's "tax break" spin when it is nothing of the sort.
You know that if private kids go into the state sector then the state then has to pay for them?
Part of the issue is that not enough people pay tax in this country. 10% of the working population pay 60% of income tax.

If we pull DD out of private then I can give up work because my wage is to pay her fees. The state will then have to pay for her education and I lose my part as a net contributer.

You said your part of household earnings was £45k , your net contribution will be minuscule.

All these apparantly “struggling” families on 2x massive salaries that are both big net contributors who can then afford and want to ditch a salary.Okaaaay.