To think that the CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis should be fired?

[WandsOut]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5dc99960-be22-448d-ae42-371a058dce7f?shareToken=810c030b858153875ba6f64bd858ed8d

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This is an absolute nightmare of a case. If you've not been aware of it before now it's time to wake up and take a hard look at what is happening in women's support services across the UK. There seems to be a concerted effort to dismantle women's boundaries and withdraw support from vulnerable women who need spaces away from men.

The objections to hiring a person as CEO on the basis of their sex are discriminatory.

It entirely depends on the role. Some CEOs would be more hands off and I can imagine that having a man wouldn't be so awful. Mridul actually "counselled" women. There was a poster on the earlier threads who experienced MW disinterestedly scrolling MW's phone while doing it.

It should not have been. CEO isn’t a job that must be done by a male or female.

As I said, it depends on the nature of the role and what the service users need.

Quite often in the past no males over 12 were allowed into women's refuges.

The CEO should not be counselling anyone full stop.
Another reason why I think they should be fired.

Yep. If women need a space free of males, they need a space free of males.

I think it’s more of a legal issue for the courts?

All these issues are. What's your point here? There is no special prohibition that I can see forbidding the use of the genuine occupational requirement for any specific role. This appears to be your opinion.

Yep.
A CEO doesn’t need to be in women’s crisis centres or even the same city as any of them.

It is my opinion it is not a genuine occupational requirement for the role of CEO that they must be female. CEOs shouldn’t be engaging F2F with victims/service users anyway.

That's great, but just your opinion. More about the duties of a CEO than anything else.

It's my opinion that your opinion is a crock of shit.

In your opinion, however the law doesn't agree. Advertising for a female CEO would have been well within the exceptions allowed by the EA 2010. See the examples in the EA 2010 linked below. I'm not sure whether it's the law or this case you need to inform yourself about but are wrong.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/26/1?view=plain#:~:text=This%20paragraph%20makes%20it%20lawful,to%20training%20for%20such%20work.

You were the person who mentioned trans people, not me, I was simply clarifying the cause of the concerns. If I can refuse a man to do my smear test without getting arrested (yet) I can sure as hell say a man should not head up a rape crisis centre. Women are being refused help if they request women (the female kind) only support groups, that is unacceptable for a rape crisis centre.

I remember reading here at the time that one of the many issues with MW's appointment was that advertising a post as open only to female applicants and then giving it to a male applicant was discriminatory against all the suitably qualified male applicants who weren't even able to apply, and who would surely have had an open and shut case at employment tribunal. It's obviously not the worst aspect of what's going on there, but it's extraordinarily inept.

Thank you for assuming I am uninformed.

A CEO is not a role that requires they do any personal or intimate care or service for women in which privacy is needed. A CEO should only be interacting with upper management, they should not be doing any F2F with front line support workers or service users at all.

In your smear test example, the comparable isn’t the nurse doing the smear test, but the head GP of your surgery. Do you think the head GP should be a woman because they supervise nurses doing smear tests in the same building?

I think the case law is trending more towards my opinion in regards upper management roles like CEO.

I agree that no one should be refused help like happened at Edinburgh.

No one should be forced or asked to see a male support worker if they want a female one, or turned away if they refuse.

I agree a GOR for female only support workers would apply to a rape crisis centre for women.

But not to the CEO role.

We share that in common then

It doesn't matter a jot what your personal opinion is here.

There is provision for this being a woman only role in the Equality Act and the rape crisis centre expressly took advantage of this provision.

Yes. This is the issue.

@IbisDancer is completely wrong.

really - so if one person sets up an organisation - and is therefore CEO, they shouldn't be doing the actual work of the organisation?

your opinion, though proclaimed as though it is fact, is sadly deeply flawed - there are lots of reasons why in any organisation the CEO may have involvement in the main work of the organisation. A headmaster / headmistress who doesn't teach any classes ever is likely to get out of touch with teaching and be a worse 'CEO'. It makes absolute sense that the CEO of a counselling service will do some counselling to keep in touch with the day to day issues being seen - to understand the stress and strain taken on by the counsellors, to be real in a way that positively enhances the organisation...

even if they did no counselling, they still need to be making decisions that affect the staff / how the staff relate to the 'customers' and also affect those end 'customers' - if you think that it is acceptable for a man to do that role in a service for those who are rape victims then maybe you need to rethink - that attitude as a part of the problem.

It really isn't difficult - there are many roles (each auditor / maintenance staff / outsourced HR services / payroll / etc.) where it wouldn't matter whether they were being carried out by a man or a woman - but the CEO - who also acts as a counsellor?! Utterly ridiculous that anyone should think it appropriate for a man to do that role.

Even Wadwha himself was asked and the response was:

The Student asked Wadhwa if she believes a man could be a successful rape crisis centre manager. She does not: “I don’t think men are ready to go out and set up services of this nature. Women’s aid organisations and rape crisis centres have been set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women. It’s about the women’s experience of sexual violence.Our workforce is reserved for women only.”

So if he doesn't believe it possible - why did he? power / sexual issues / delusion / there is no nice answer that fits the pattern of a man pretending to be a woman to take the role of head of a rape crisis centre - even while articulating that it is not right for a man to do that!

It’s both. The exCEO was clearly abusing their position and power in numerous ways. There was bullying and unfair dismissal of the support worker for her beliefs. But there was also inappropriate boundary crossing by insisting on counselling women, when front line service provision is never the role of a CEO in any charity or business ever.

Women’s aid organisations and rape crisis centres have been set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women. It’s about the women’s experience of sexual violence.Our workforce is reserved for women only.”

Christ, this is breathtaking.

"I agree a GOR for female only support workers would apply to a rape crisis centre for women.

But not to the CEO role."

@IbisDancer

Well clearly ERCC disagrees as they advertised the CEO role as only open to females under the exceptions allowed for in the equality act.

And has been pointed out THEY have been discriminatory in giving the role to a male.

Also MW has admitted he was actively involved in the counselling. Even though he has no qualifications in this area

Again - you have a totally wrong understanding of what a CEO will always be... yes in an organisation of 20,000 they might sit in the c-suite offices and not be involved with the client, but in any small to middle size organisation no CEO will be separated from their clients - what exactly is your logic in how you define a CEO, as it is different to everyone else in the world! I have nearly 40 years of running businesses / setting them up / advising businesses etc. - with involvement in 1000s of businesses... everyone of which has a CEO who is actively involved with their clients...

so if one person sets up an organisation - and is therefore CEO
Er, you can’t be CEO of a business of zero employees. It’s a joke when people say they are CEO of their brand or side hustle.

It makes absolute sense that the CEO of a counselling service will do some counselling to keep in touch with the day to day issues being seen
No, it makes zero sense, that is what feedback loops and management meetings are for.