to think that many people have totally unrealistic expectations of parenting and life in general

[emkana]

I have a few friends who struggle with the stresses and tiredness that parenting brings with it and with the demands of work etc., and I can understand that and can empathize. Their respective partners do their bit but could probably do more, this is definitely something that should be addressed and sorted, no argument there. BUT what I find a bit exasperating at times is the attitude they seem to have that they should have more help and support from other sources, like friends and family, that they have a right to time off, to (the dreaded word) "me time". At the end of the day children are the parents' responsibility aren't they? And where does all this expectation of "me-time" (that is also heavily talked about in the meedja I feel) come from anyway? I often think of my grandmother in that context, who had four children under seven in 1945, her husband was imprisoned as a PoW, she had no money coming in... I wonder what her reaction would have been if somebody had explained the concept of "me-time" to her. Of course we all do need breaks at times, but things have gone too far I feel.

(sits back and prepares for the flack)

the isolation for new mothers is worse now than it has ever been. there may not have been me time as such, but there were neighbours to have a cup of tea with, and often a sister or mum up the road to mind the children for an hour. this idea of parenting, all alone, within four walls of a house, is tough.

I don't think anyone necessarily has a 'right' to me-time, it's not enshrined in law, but if you (and your HUSBAND, being as how all the anti-me-timers seem to focus on women taking time off as being a terrible thing) like to do non-kid-orientated stuff to the non-detriment of our children, then why should anyone else give a flying toss?

Go on, tell me why it's wrong that I go to the gym, or have a dirty weekend with DH, or like to get DS in bed so we can watch a film. I feel like a good laugh.

(Incidentally, I suspect my grandmother's reaction to the idea of me-time would be yes, I would have liked that, please. My mother, who had five kids, is now greatly enjoying hers and bloody good luck to her).

krang, you can do whatever you like, as long as you have childcare in place, of course you can. But if your parents for example, and your dh's parents, couldn't/wouldn't want to look after them for you, and no other family members, then ... then what? Then you would just have to accept that really, and while you could have a moan you should not complain because they are your children and you chose to have them, so it's up to you to care for them.

I agree with oranges, people tended to live in the area that they grew up in and have the extended family all around them in days gone by. It can be isolating for new mothers, they have been used to being at work and having a network of friends and may not be part of their community. It takes time to build up a support network. I am sure that if I had been bringing up DCs in my grandmother's day I would have been trying to get time on my own to read a book, the only difference is that I probably wouldn't have called it 'me' time.(I don't actually see anything wrong with 'me time'-I do a lot-I think that I deserve it!!)

There's less community than there was when our grans were mothers to I suppose. My nana said she could always sent the kids out to her sisters or her neighbours for a bit so she could 'get on with things'. Also it was peceived to be safer to let your kids out from dawn till dusk (even when I was young). Maybe that's when they got their 'me time'?

I suspect all women have been carving it out of their days since the beginning of time, esp 'brain-only me-time' while doing mindless physical work like sewing, and the vital doctrine of taking small moments of joy where you can.

AGree with Iklboo. What's changed for our generation is that so many of us live so far away from our families. So whilst our grandparents may have had it harder (I don't for one second question that they didn't), chances are they had their parents, siblings, grandparents etc. all within a small distance. Would make a big difference IMO.

The other thing was that in grandmother's day DC could go out of the door in the morning to play and arrive back for meals and no one thought anything of it!

I do see where you are coming from, when my other half says 'I didn't expect to be this tired', I think well, what DID you expect? For me, I expect to be second to my kids for at least the first five years - of course, it's exhausting and completely different from before but that was what I was expecting .

Being a mum/parent is so all-consuming. I do wonder whether the trend towards having a baby later - so having a whole career, and 'adult' life you get used to, only thinking about yourself and NOT thinking about another responsibility, the harder it MUST be to give up.

For me, I LOVE being a mum, genuinely enjoy discipline/caring/being silly/doing creative stuff with kids, love the mum side of my job best (teaching), and my life plan and 'career' has been to be a mum (plan to foster later too) so I guess I don't feel like I am giving so much up either...

I can understand that if you enjoy doing other things (rather than the Mum Stuff) you'd quite like to do those things too .

Hmm, interesting point, and whilst some may take it too far I think the majority of women are not happy to be just a parent and feel their needs as a person deserve some weight too.
There's nothing wrong with that.
In fact (as I warm to the theme) no one tells new dads that they can't have regular contact with the outside world (football, pub quizzes etc) but whilst a mum may take a "necessary" (who says what is necessary?) break it is highly unusual to support a mum taking regular me time, even if its only once a week- unless it's something useful like exercise class or some such, and it doesn't get in the way of her primary duties. And you can bet her dp will get kudos for "letting" her do it too.
Using the example of a woman in 1945 is a bad choice. It was a lifetime ago and since then women have slowly been allowed to see themselves as more than the sum of their duties.

PS I don't think there is anything wrong with parents going and doing something purely for themselves. Am off to a party tonight and quite fancy a Clothesmaking course, myself...

Emkana - you are starting a lot of rather depressing threads today. Are you OK? (genuine question?)

Nope, emkana, if my family couldn't look after DS for an evening I would get a reliable babysitter or a friend.If I want to do things on my own, then DH looks after him.

My DS had loads and loads of people who he loves and trusts and is very happy to stay with. I absolutely do not agree that only family should look after him. All my family live a way away and I have not 'just accepted' that I should therefore never do anything. I have gone out and made my own networks because that's what you have to do these days.

What are you really getting at? Do you just not like mothers who don't particularly enjoy being with their children 24/7? Do you think there's something a bit weird, a bit unnatural about them? When I see a phrase like 'we all need a break but things have gone a bit far...' that makes me think that frankly you just think women are having far too much fun these days.

And, re having unrealistic expectations, loads of people have no experience of babies and children till they have their own these days.

Previously, it would be very hard to dodge some direct experience of childrearing especially if you were a girl. If you were the eldest of a family of six or over you would be doing plenty of childcare, and if you were the youngest you would be roped in as an auntie when you elder sisters and brothers had babies.

If you only see representations of motherhood in the media the reality is bound to be a horrible 24/7 nighmare.

what do you mean, emkana, that 'things have gone too far'. Are there thousands of women silently floating in dark pools enjoying me time while their children play with razorblades? Or are mothers simply trying to read book or newspaper occassionally?

I can remember being sent outside to play with the other children in the street (which was a very quiet cul-de-sac) while the Mums had coffe and a chance for a sit down and a chat. I also can remember being looked after by grandparents while my parents had a weekend away, and being babysat. On top of that, my Mum was horrified that I was booted out of the hospital when I was clearly not in a good state and struggling to breastfeed, as she had had a LOT of support postnatally when she had me.
I do use grandparent babysitting on a fairly regular basis, but I always ask nicely and am happy to fit around their schedules. I wouldn't say that I demand it as a right. My parents like having time with DD and beg us to let her stay overnight more often! I realise that I'm lucky, but to be honest, we've moved house 3 times since DD was born, so it hasn't been easy making/keeping friends. I do my best to meet people, but the time with DH keeps me sane and is good for our marriage.

Gotta go now so will read later, but yes Anna I'm fine thanks for asking, just generally musing on life and all that.

Anyway, how is MN time classified? Surely gratuitous use of the t'interweb has to be classified as 'me time'?

Def agree about Dads rarely losing their 'outside world' contact although several of my friend's partners have to ask 'permission' to go out . I think it's hard for people to understand that Mums (maybe Dads, don;t know) sometimes want to go and do something but also don't want to leave baby/children either. So it becomes a momentous decision rather than just going out. So, of course, it's made much easier if you have solid childcare you trust (partner, grandparents etc).

And oranges, of course not, but when I have friend complaining to me in great detail that she can't go for a spa day then I think "well, so what?"

fair enough. the whole concept of spas as 'me time' warrants a whole other thread.

Sodding hell - I can't even get to Spar some days, never mind a spa!

I don't think people have many rights anyway.

What they do have are the negotiating skills to get themselves what they want out of life (not necessarily at the expense of others, btw).

Emkana - OK then