***TW*** Sexual intimidation - To think that this is what almost every woman goes through.

[PurplePink45]

Just watching the documentary on the Kevin Spacey allegations.

Watching a man talking about how scared and intimidated he felt, how he felt so uncomfortable being around him and wondered what he did to deserve this unwanted attention.

I had empathy for the man but I wish all of the men watching would understand how often that happens to women and not just once in a lifetime, but multiple times from a very young age (preteen).

I want to say this is our norm and it bloody well shouldn't be!

For me it was:
Age 12, 2 boys in my class at school touching my breasts and putting their hands up my skirt.

Age 15 A boy being pushing about wanting to kiss me even though I said no.

Age 16 A man at work in his 60s trying to cop a feel/touching me inappropriately and making me feel intimidated.

Age 18 Being rescued by my male friend as a boy tried to persuade the very drunk me to go further than I wanted to and not taking no for an answer.or picking up the "no" signals like moving their hand off your breasts.

Feeling intimidated multiple times by men hooting me and wolf whistling/inappropriate comments from men when walking the streets.

And many, many other acts of male sexual intimidation since then.

It's great nobody said that. Incredibly rare good fortune to be one of the tiny minority of women spared. I'm glad for you.

Yes I am really pleased some women have never received any form of predatory sexually abusive behaviour from men

but let’s not derail the conversation the fact is far far too many woman have and often this started when they were children

thats the issue

Exactly. Those of us pointing out that it's a minority who escaped this are simply making the point that - irrefutably - most women do experience it. Just as the OP said - it is, indeed, almost every woman. And the rare, fortunate exceptions don't alter that sad reality.

It'd be an incredibly rare woman who's never been groped, catcalled, had a pervy comment aimed at her, had a creepy man ogle, leer and invade her space - Some women don't consider that abuse or harassment.
Pleased to meet you. Nothing of the above has happened to me. I do not consider myself especially lucky, as I don't get positive attention from men either, and had no option to have conventional relationships or family.

If you're referring to me I simply said I hadn't experienced everyday sexual intimidation (and I haven't led a particularly careful or sheltered life) though I am sorry to hear that the experience of others is different. There is no need to be so rude.

Make that two.

I could have written everything you said zendeveloper

Because we believe that it isn't all men.

But billions of men worldwide means even a tiny proportion have a big impact.

I was raped over 20 years ago and reported it. I had nothing but care and understanding from the Police and he was charged, pled guilty and went to prison.

There have many other men who caused harm to me that I didn't report and one I did where the Police were equally as great and supportive but it didn't go anywhere because of other factors, including family members who'd also been victims not being willing to talk to the Police.

But my Dad is a wonderful man. I have numerous other male family members and friends and colleagues that are - AFAIK.

I've been accused of being a man or an MRA on MN in the past when I've objected to posters saying the Police or CPS don't care about rape or sexual offences and try to cover up for men because I don't think that's true.

It wasn't my experience. At all. But I also don't discount the women who had negative experiences and sadly, my experience was uncommon.

Nobody is saying you're lying, just that it's uncommon.

I find it astounding - but also heartening - that some women genuinely haven't experienced even low level harassment by men over the years.

My experiences range from the absolute worst (rape by a stranger in an alleyway), through non violent physical acts (bum pinching by some lads in public, having my boss touch my breast), to the minor but irritating stuff (men trying to chat me up in pubs and not giving up when I said I wasn't interested).

It was the backdrop to my teen and young adult years. And I'm nothing special - I was pretty-ish but not stunning, didn't stand out in terms of clothing or make-up or manner - just a normal young woman.

Even now, in my mid 50s, it's something I have to think about. Recently I had to wait for DS doing sports training for an hour, and I had to pass the time. I considered sitting in a local pub, but realised it was the sort of place where if I sat alone, some random bloke would probably come and talk to me, and would be hard to get rid of. So I sat in my car instead.

This is just life as a woman, in my experience.

Why do we need to always have it pointed out not all woman have suffered or not all men are like this

ffs

the issue is once again being derailed by these comments

far far too many woman have suffered at the hands of abusive cruel men often when they are children

That’s the issue op started this thread to discuss please for once just let this be discussed without derailment

I have not experienced any attention from men at all, positive or negative. I can actually count all instances where men have voluntarily initiated a conversation with me outside of the work context (not a romantic conversation, just vaguely social, say in a hobby group).

I have children as I really wanted to be a mother, but they were a carefully orchestrated project with someone who had zero sexual interest in me (or anu interest in them).
Tbh, experiences of most women are like a parallel universe to me. It is partially why I am on mumsnet, to understand that part of the world.

I also participate in a few femcel groups, and it is a very common experience there.

Yep, that's what it's starting to sound like on here and to be honest I think that's going to cause more harm than good.

//

Depends what you mean by harm ... I personally am more concerned by the harm being done to an awful lot of women by Not All Men But Lots Of Them

Crikey I missed that.

Why on earth would it not be considered harassment?!

Err... what do you mean by "why would it not be considered harassment"?

It certainly is odd. I don't think it can be as simple as being "ugly/unattractive" since there are many many people (men and women) who are ugly who are married with kids and plenty of "less attractive" women, even in this thread, have experienced harassment at the same rate as their more attractive counterparts.

How do you "hide in the shadows" like that I wonder? Or what are you putting out there that deflects attention (wanted or unwanted)?

When I find sad is every single thread about this type of thing, there is a brigade of NAMALT.

I wish that phrase would just disappear.

You never ever hear men preface the things they say about women with not all women are like that they just don't, so why the hell are we doing it?

I responded to specific comments. That's not derailment.

I thought the men speaking on the programme were very eloquent about their experiences and I felt for them, but I too thought 'welcome to our world'.

I agree with PPs who have said it's about power rather than attraction and I certainly think that was the case for Kevin Spacey. I think he was quoted as saying it was all the more attractive that one of his victims was a muscly marine.

I had shared a few of my many experiences of unwanted sexual attention with my then husband, but not all. There was something on the news that triggered (for want of a better word) me and he said "Why did all these things happen to you?". I looked at him and said "They happen to nearly every female". He would not accept this at all (despite the fact that one of the favourite family stories was his sister's experience of a paedophile when she was a child). There was nothing I could do or say for my husband to accept that any other woman ever had experienced any abuse, only me and that made it my fault, being the common denominator.

Of all the many experiences I did have over the years, he was the only one to rape me. I've no doubt that would be my fault too, even though I was asleep or asking him not to.

I agree

girls and women are so conditioned to think of other peoples feelings

look at the stories we read our children, the tv and films they watch it’s starts from so early on it’s hard to escape it

See, this is what puzzles me. I made complete peace with my situation, as did many (most?) other unattractive women I know. But it still somehow unacceptable to admit that a woman just can be unattractive and invisible to men, through no fault of her own, and it comes on both positive and negative ends of the spectrum. The ultimate failure in life. Even in your post you are saying - "how odd, it must not be your looks, but something awful you are doing / projecting out". At least thank you for not bringing the usual Roald Dahl's "you must be ugly on the inside" 😁

The post claimed that all women have experienced that - I just wanted to offer another perspective. This is what the discussion is for, isn't it? This is not to minimise the issue that sexual harassment obviously exists, and is a problem for many women. Not all women though - plenty of examples on this very thread.

It's my experience. YANBU.

I have been sexually assaulted in a nightclub. I was drunk so thought it was my own fault. I've actually never told anyone IRL.

I have been honked at by a passing car full of men jeering at me out of the window.

A man masturbated in front of me on the tube.

A sexual partner went way too far and I didn't feel able to stop him.

A man I didn't know spat in my face as I walked past him in the street.

These experiences are so ordinary, so every day for women. I literally don't know a single woman who hasn't got a similar story to tell in some way.

Exactly this. And the OP stated MOST women so she wasn't even claiming it is universal. These posters are arguing against something that wasn't even said. I'm not sure what they are trying to prove.

There will always be outliers, exceptions that prove the rule. So, a minority of women have a different experience - so what? It doesn't alter the fact that male harassment and abuse IS the norm for the vast majority of women.

I wasn't responding to the OP. I responded to someone who claimed it was universal and to someone else who questioned my experience.

Oh no. I didn't mean for a second that it was your own fault or that you must be "ugly on the inside" I'm so sorry it came across that way.
I just meant it's a mystery why some people are overlooked and others are not as I can't see ANY single reason for it. I'm not a believer in "fate" but it's enough to make you wonder.

No, it doesn’t. You don’t get to look at a short comment on Mumsnet and decide you understand my choices about my life. I wrote a whole comment about why my life is the way it is. I have a variety of mental health issues that come from depression, anxiety, and growing up with undiagnosed ADHD.

It’s also kind of a shitty thing to say to a bisexual woman - “you wanted to be around lesbians and other bi women, must be because you’re afraid of men.” As if lesbians and bisexual women wouldn’t want to socialize with each other for any other reason. And for you to make bog-standard ADHD issues like sensory overload and social anxiety - when you grow up undiagnosed and think something’s essentially wrong with you, you can end up with social anxiety - be somehow about men is frankly kind of ableist. You do not understand how neurodivergence affects my life better than I do. You are not entitled to “explain” it to me.

Me either and I'm not particularly munter-like