Reasonable to expect a surgeon to do this?

[Beeturpot]

ex dh is a surgeon. He became a consultant after we separated. I did all drop offs etc and was called in all emergencies and if dc needed collecting etc. He said he couldn’t leave if in work as it wasn’t the sort of job that allowed it.

I have recently been promoted. I’m feeling resentful that I am doing all the running around for dc. They live with me. Is he right that this is too difficult for him? He claims to start work by 8am and often leaves late. I don’t know anyone in his area of work and i don’t know if he’s taking the piss. He does do his share at weekends. Just feeling fed up.

Haven’t read the rest of the thread because I’m too busy imagining a surgeon just leaving some poor bastard wide open on the table while he runs off to pick the kids up from school

I think he’s being a bit ridiculous.

My husband is a Consultant colorectal surgeon, Im also a doctor in a different field. We have two nursery age children. He does more drop offs and pick ups than I do, although we did have to find a nursery which opened at 7.30am. My husband is clinical and directly patient facing probably 3 days a week, the other two he has the flexibility to work from home if needed, with on call commitments being the exception to that. Yes he can’t drop things immediately if he has a theatre or endoscopy list or clinic but unless you ex is on a huge number of PAs, there will definitely be time when he can help if needed.

Then you need to pay someone to do it.

Because leaving work for this kind of non-emergency, especially with the current state of the NHS, with people waiting months and months for pain relief and cancer operations, is actively doing harm to their patients.

I'm sorry for your loss though, that's rough.

Those who are saying this surgeon would be earning "big bucks"- how much are you imagining his pay is? It would be between £120-150K. It's all relative but not enough for the responsibility carried and the ongoing sacrifices.

Luckily, he has a few years experience, he can ditch most of his NHS work and really earn big bucks privately

Perhaps because there is no possible way to have a back up plan
😁 Yes there is a way to have a backup plan. My not very high paid RAF dad had a nanny for us every day after school until he came home and then he would pay her to do more when mum when do-lally and was sectioned into hospital at unpredictable intervals.

There are also au pairs.

These days, there is also after school care and breakfast clubs- my dad would have saved a ton of money if those were around then.

Neighbours, parents of your DC’s friends in a pinch are a back up plan too for having to work late. Your DC goes home with friend and you collect them later.

I posted the BMA pay scales. Ta

@Beeturpot this makes interesting reading!

https://www.ewi.org.uk/Membership/Becoming-an-Expert-Witness/Day-in-the-life-of-an-Expert-Witness/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-surgeon

Good point. Sure, plastic surgery and other fairly unnecessary stuff could be rescheduled without too much issue but joint replacements - don't be so sure.

At the risk of outing myself, I'm currently waiting for a major joint replacement. I am on six different kinds of pain relief including morphine, and none of it is controlling the pain. My mobility and ability to function is fucked, and I am in constant severe pain every day and much of the night and have been for two years.
The wait for pain management clinic is March 2025.
For the joint replacement? Much longer.

This is the current state of orthopaedics in the NHS, so yeah, surgeons who are adding to the problem by abandoning their patients to go and wipe their kids' noses, who haven't organised any kind of alternative childcare provision for emergencies they KNOW are likely to happen and clearly have no idea of how it is to live with something like this, get not much respect from me.

@RobBeckettsGiantTeeth we will have to agree to disagree. My family are, and always will be, my number one priority. Whilst I am happy to outsource a lot of childcare (they both went to full time nursery under the age of 6 months and do full wraparound at school) and have a supportive husband, I am ok with the fact that it may at some point be necessary to cancel a patient due to the health of one of my dependents. It hasn't happened yet, but I can't promise it won't. I am not prepared to pay for the services of a nanny, to be available just in case, something that I haven't required in 8 years of parenting. If that makes me a terrible person in your eyes then so be it. Another of my colleagues handed in their notice this week. We have tried unsuccessfully to recruit to a number of vacancies. If we send the message that we will only employ people who are prepared to sell their soul to the NHS then we would be in even deeper trouble than we are already in.

@RobBeckettsGiantTeeth I would suggest you reserve your ire for a system that is failing becase there are no failsafes, there are insufficient people and trained doctors etc etc (and a government that allowed this to happen) than for the odd surgeon who might need to zip out very occassionally.

In the normal course of life, most of us don't have to do emergency childcare THAT often. And if the NHS was less on its knees, the odd issue could easily be picked up by other people (as it is in the private sector - if I am unexpectedly unwell or have to do emergency childcare, a combination of me working a bit harder in the following days and the goodwill of colleagues, who know they'll get the same back when it's their turn, quickly ensures that deadlines are still met. That's how it should be in the NHS too).

OP hasn't said, but I'm guessing he expects her to be default parent, while, of course, still insisting on his "rights" to his children when he wants them, not to pay as much maintenance etc etc etc.

There’s a big gender divide in surgery for exactly this reason - it’s really not family friendly (other medical specialties are far more flexible).

OP it is really going to depend on his job plan - I work 12 PAs but a lot of those are non-clinical so can be flexed (I do a lot of work at home after DS is in bed). If your DH does a lot of clinical work, or has a private practice (I don’t) he won’t have any flexibility. An 8am start is entirely normal - I’d say probably a bit late for a surgeon (ours start at 7:00-7:30 depending on what they are doing). 6pm finish is entirely normal, later if on call.

The solution isn’t then that you run about after him - he needs to give you more days and pay more maintenance in exchange, or organise childcare to do pickups.

Yep he should be leaving mid surgery to pick up the kids if needed…

@RobBeckettsGiantTeeth do you also expect retail workers to take a pay cut/pay for your groceries because the cost has gone up and how are ordinary people supposed to manage their food bills?

I am deeply sympathetic to your personal health issues. But I am also certain that if your surgery gets delayed significantly, it's not because a surgeon had a once off family emergency.

That's a leap. When have I ever said anything like that? This thread is not about retail workers.

What I am saying (apparently comprehension is an issue) is that if you have already waited months, years, in constant pain for your surgery, and it gets cancelled because a surgeon who planned their life or finances too badly to have alternative childcare provision set up for their kids has to leave to go and pick them up, and you then get thrown back into the waiting list for god knows how much longer - no, that is absolutely not acceptable, even unethical, and they are in the wrong job.

I haven't suggested that he does. However I do suspect that there is a bit more leeway in his schedule than he will let on to his ex. Firstly he's not a lone ranger, he'll be working as part of a team with other consultants and healthcare professionals. There will be outpatient clinics so he won't be in theatre 100% of the time. Also he'll have admin sessions to write up clinic letters/ do leadership work/ teach students and trainees.
There will be a mixture of routine and emergency work. In any case he has children and has half the responsibility to make sure they're looked after rather than dumping it all on his ex.

I think there a few trades where a parent - of either sex - cannot be expected to drop everything for a family problem.
Surgeon & airline pilot , I'm sure there are others.

Or maybe Mr oh so very important could arrange cover for when he is working

I am a year 4 Consultant Surgeon and eligible for tax free childcare and (thank God) 15 hrs. I work a mixture of resident nights on the shop floor, non resident nights and 2x regular clinics, a regular elective list and various other on call /education etc.
Lots of new appointments are 9:1 SPA.
I am a single parent to a 2 yr old.
I use a mixture of a nanny, nursery, grandparents (who also subsidise childcare).
There should be some flexibility - most of us work from home one day a week and this would (on calls permitting) be an ideal day for him to be responsible for childcare.
The sole occassion I have been contacted (by the lovely anaesthetist organising my 1 yr old transfer from my local dgh to the regional children’s hospital) one of my colleagues arrived in the hospital within 15 minutes on a Sat evening to take the bleep.

As he can't physically pull his weight he has to reciprocate financially and pay for help

My step daughter is an A and E consultant and her husband is a Surgeon. Neither of them can leave work for school pick ups. They have 2 Nannies. If you are a high earner some of that money has to be spent on childcare. It’s a choice you make.

Yes, this. It is a choice, and if you choose to enjoy the very high salaries offered by such a career then there are also responsibilities that go alongside that, not least of which being not letting down your patients for personal reasons.

He needs to man up, earn more, and let you work less in order to be able to handle these sorts of difficulties. He's a surgeon, not a bin man or something. On the other hand, what if he was in the forces or something? It's not like he could just nip back from the front line is it

But you seem to think that the OP must just suck it up because "he's a surgeon". I'm not disputing that in any sort of career like this you need a solution that allows you not to have to worry about the vast bulk of daily childcare issues because no one wants surgeons to be rushing out every five minutes. But "dump it all on my ex" doesn't seem like a great solution to me and that's what OP is asking - is it okay that he just expects her to pick up the slack and that her career is suffering as a result.

Last year a friend was called by the school to collect her DD. She couldn't do it - she was over an hour away and in the middle of something. Her DH was travelling for work. So she called me and asked me to pick her up. That took her just a few minutes and it was sorted. But you seem to think that the surgeon doesn't even have to do this - it's all out of his control as he must be 100% focused on patients, and only patients, at all times and who cares how that impacts his exwife?

I don’t think you are being unreasonable. You’ve spent your career compromising your day, thus supporting him in his. That was fine at the time as you were a couple with joint lives. Now, however, you are not a couple with joint lives and his career is still dominating yours which is unfair. He has responsibilities and needs to adjust his career to accommodate those. It has been perfectly acceptable for you to adapt for him and now he needs to deal with the reality of parenting too.

If he can’t do it he can arrange childcare for someone who can ? The burden shouldn’t just be on you . How often does he have the children ?