Restaurant row who is at fault?

[Polishedshoesalways]

Out with friends in a restaurant last night - six of us in total. Two of my friends were light heatedly disagreeing about gender politics between them. They were not bothering anyone else.

Friend x suddenly shouts at them quite aggressively and loudly to ‘shut up’

Loud enough for the tables around us to stop and stare.

Would you think this is rude? She was not part of the conversation at the time.

The table sat in stunned silence after that. It’s now really awkward. She hasn’t apologised or acknowledged that shouting or shutting a conversation down like that isn’t cool. The friends in question seem offended.

What do you think? Do they have a point?
Are you okay with being told to shut up?

Not ok, very rude. What did you say in return after she shouted?

I didn’t say anything. I was shocked, I think I eventually asked her if she is okay.

Yes she was very rude and very loud if other tables noticed, but did no one speak with her separately and find out what made her do that? Was it the subject matter do you think or do the pair have a habit of arguing?

The two friends have always spoken about this, but not in a way that is uncomfortable in my view. We have an ethos that all debate is good. Usually.

There might be background issues for this person and they might've found it triggering? So my thoughts would be to let it go and bear this in mind for future meet ups.

I'm gender critical but not without compassion for those who are struggling with their gender.

Light hearted, loud or joking about gender politics?
If the friends were loud and saying anything offensive I would have told them to keep quiet/shut up.

It is rude to shout shut up, of course.

However this We have an ethos that all debate is good made me wonder. I work with someone who thinks this. Basically she 'lightheartedly' introduces controversial topics which just depresses other people. She 'enjoys debate'.

Maybe the topic of gender politics was not as lighthearted for the listener as you think - what specifically was being discussed? Gender politics is quite serious, really.

It's a tricky one.

Your friend was definitely rude, there's no question about it.

But do your two friends who like to debate about gender perhaps need to read the room a bit? If there are six of you out for dinner and the two of them are dominating the conversation talking about something no one else wants to talk about, that's not great either.

As long as your friends weren’t offensive, then shut up girl has acted like a complete bitch. If I were your friends I wouldn’t speak to her again or see her again without getting a grovelling apology/explanation first.

Maybe it gets really annoying hearing the two of them repeat the same points over and over and she'd just had enough

Yeah this. I'm wondering if they just keep going on and on about it

The friend who shouted was obviously very rude.

It sounds like the other friends were having a friendly argument and that's the norm in your friendship group. Nothing wrong with their behaviour at all. Their conversation sounds more interesting than tedious small talk.

Or maybe she was more aware of how the conversation was affecting other diners

It's impossible to say without knowing the detail of the conversation but it's most likely the person who yelled "shut up" is wrong. But if the people she yelled at were being offensive then maybe not. Lighthearted banter can easily cross the line - typical example being "locker room talk" between men where the banter can cross the line into misogyny - their banter may have similarly crossed a line, but we can't know.

They really don’t solely talk about politics at all. It came up because of the local elections. The restaurant was really noisy and people were enjoying their own conversations at the time.

As far as I am aware she has no issues re GP and sometimes joins in and speaks about her views. Up to now she has been reasonable, she is outspoken most of the time.

It’s really out of character to be so rude though.
Telling our friends to shut up has really upset me as they looked shocked and offended. I asked her if she was okay, and she was snappy back at me as well.

I guess my question is - is it ever okay to shout at a friend/ friends to shut up? They were definitely not being offensive or loud at all.

Its really put me off her tbh.

No, it’s not ok.

If she won’t apologise then she should not be invited again.

Have you reached out to shouted at friends?

Yes I spoke to shouted friends, they were very much wth about it.

It’s not OK, but it’s not necessarily unforgivable. I’m in a schoolfriend group with very strong bonds between us, so there have been situations similar to this at our annual meet-up (we’re all 57 going on 17…).

Talk about it if you can? Find out what’s bothering the snippy friend?

Have you had a chat at the shouter to find out what the issue is?

maybe she’s just fed up of the constant ‘ooh let’s debate this topic’ it’s not fun to be constantly talking about politics. Do you ever have fun conversations?

I'd assume that she was struggling with something. Tbh it sounds like a shit night out, if they are rehashing the same arguments.

Shouty friend was rude, yes, but we all have our off days!
I don't think writing off years of friendship over this is the right thing.

People having a "fun debate" sometimes just don't realise how fucking annoying they become! I used to work in a bar and the same group of locals "debated" the same thing, in the same way so often that it made you want to cut your own ears off!! It was so draining and boring and hugely annoying!

The issue now is we are supposed to be booking a weekend away and a few of the group are now saying they are not sure about going now.

I just think she didn’t need to be so rude.

Tried to approach friend x and she says it’s no big deal she was just expressing herself authentically. She doesn’t seem to see that yelling shut up at two adults who were chatting is not standard. Not in our group anyway!

She seems to think it’s fine, that’s the issue.

This is it I think ^

Sounds like she’s had enough