to ask your thoughts on this? Fatal shooting during burglary

[itsjustataste]

Happened near me very recently and our community seems very torn with lots of people slinging insults at both sides. Lots of people shouting about playing stupid games, win stupid prizes etc... whilst others calling the shooter a murderer.

I find it very sad that someone so young has ultimately lost their life and has got mixed up in this sort of thing.

BUT that being said, I don't have any ill feeling toward the farmer either and cannot say that I wouldn't do the same if faced with 3 people breaking into my home, especially if I had my children in the house.

The other 2 suspects arrested for aggravated burglary meaning a weapon was involved and there had been a break in at the same home the night previously too.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-68942085.amp

That’s true. I still feel mostly for the farmer though. I can imagine it’s terrifying having someone break into your home. I wasn’t in when I was burgled. I can’t imagine being able to think straight and make the best decisions in that situation. But you are right. It’s all speculation.

Was that the farmer in Ireland?

Of course, the BBC will probably also explain how burglars are some of the most marginalised and repressed group in society today.

Ah. So potentially really dangerous people then. Farmers have it tough in lots of ways I feel and this is something I didn’t know. I’d always thought there was less crime rurally.

You break into someones house, armed or unarmed, with intent to harm or just steal.. you risk the consequences.
I feel for the families too but the farmer did the right thing. Tony Martin shot the burglar in the back so it wasn't black and white but he was so sick of it happening.
Don't break into someones home.. it's not hard.

Thanks for the balance @quickchange1. It’s incredible that so many people think it’s possible that there will be no charge brought. If you kill someone you’ll find yourself in court. The question will be whether the charge is murder, manslaughter or unlawful killing. Do we really want a country where you can kill somebody and just walk away?

Team farmer 🫶🏻 his life changed that night whilst he was innocently sleeping. Most people would do anything to protect their family.

There are very, very few facts in the public domain. The “gossip” locally (I’m not local, but a friend is), is that there’s much more to emerge.

The leap to a conclusion that I’m seeing on here, before all of the facts are presented, is one of the reasons I think jury trials increasingly risk dangerously unsafe verdicts.

I’m keeping an open mind about this one. Either way it’s horribly tragic.

Good for him. The young man was inside the farmers home, wasn’t alone and they were armed. The farmer must have been absolutely terrified.
We’re farmers and this is our worst nightmare. We’re often very isolated, we personally definitely are, and police response is absolutely pathetic, either very slow or no one sent at all. Farms are often seen as easy targets, plenty of valuables that are relatively easy to move on and often elderly or lone occupants.

Stop telling their side. Trying to paint them as decent boys. Nobody gives a shit. They are scum.

The farmer was waiting because he was probably terrified and the police will do fuck all to protect you

I was more thinking about response times. How quickly can you have the sound of a siren ringing in the thugs ears? But I’m sure it’s a complex issue with no easy fix. A post above mentions county lines and one mentions organised crime, which if that’s involved is a whole other kettle of fish and even more complex than my question about risk versus reward.

3 men broke into his property with weapons (aggravated) for the second night in a row - yes, the farmer has the right to defend himself!! When are we going to stop making excuses for young people being violent criminals. We prosecute people in this country for tossing an apple core out the car into the hedge but people aren’t allowed to protect themselves.

Well, when I was burgled when I was at home, I just looked up from my bed as the burglar opened the bedroom door and he ran away as fast as he could. If I’d had a gun on me it would have been inappropriate to shoot, though if he’d continued to come into the room after seeing me, I would have felt justified as far too close for any other warning to be issued.

In this case, we don’t know if they broke into the farmhouse with guns and were found, stood menacingly over the kids’ beds with gun ready, by the farmer who fortunately had grabbed his gun and could save his kids from something horrendous. Or if they broke into an outbuilding with a crowbar and the farmer shot them in the back, unseen, from his bedroom window where he’d been waiting in the dark for them.

In the first situation, I don’t think any attempt at a warning is needed, in the second a warning would be essential and shooting would only become appropriate if they actually threatened the farmer.

Of course those are unlikely extremes, but they illustrate that there’s a huge range of things that could have happened that would fit the description in the news.

He shot them in the back as they were leaving though and there was evidence presented that he knew they were coming and laid in wait. The judge said it didn’t change the law that you could defend yourself. It was judged his actions weren’t self defence. Will have to see what happens in this case and circumstances could be quite different.

The burglar deserved everything he got.

The family bleating on about how he was “a lovely lad” or whatever are just as big a part of the problem as their scrote of a relative. We all know their type - nothing’s ever their fault, always hard done by, while acting as if the law doesn’t apply to them - they’re absolute scum.

I absolutely feel for the farmer and his family.

I’d side with the farmer.
I cannot imagine how frightening it would be for someone, let alone 3 armed men to enter my home. More so with children there, thoughts of torture, rape, murder- who knows.

The people that entered are scum, I have zero sympathy.

That’s shocking what you have been through, I’m sorry it happened to you and your family x

That’s quite a different take on it. I guess we will find out more as the trial continues.

That’s an excellent quote

With Tony Martin he wasn’t very good at coming across as the victim - the gun was illegal and one for killing people not rabbits, he wasn’t sad, he wasn’t sorry, he shot the lad in the back (and there was a suspicion of “lying in wait”, the lad was only 16.

He was later diagnosed on the autistic spectrum which explained him a bit more. But he didn’t come across well to the jury at all.

But he still was only just convicted. (10-2 verdict - he just needed one more juror for a hung jury.)

If this farmer comes across as very scared, very sad, very sorry and very haunted by it then the CPS will probably not prosecute. (As they only do if a greater than 50% chance of conviction and going by the average mumsnetter I don’t think many of us would vote to send him to prison.)

In the end it all comes down to “is he likeable and do we identify with him”. Tony Martin was not likeable.

Forgive my ignorance ( and I have tried to educate myself re drugs/trafficking) but what are county lines? What does it mean? I thought maybe it was like the states in that they have state law but afaik it's not like that in the UK so what does it mean,m (it's been annoying me for ages!)

Sorry what do you mean by that? I thought the concensus was they were probably stealing machinery etc

also why would they think it was deserted if the farmer was known locally?

No London. I have found this article.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/family-burgler-killed-after-breaking-12368964.amp

Although all the facts aren't known, presumably one thing that is surely undisputed is that 3 unknown men were in the farmers house, uninvited. That in itself confirms those men were in the wrong in the first place.

I live alone with my two primary age DC, one has significant SEN. One of the reasons I spent £2.5k on a back door recently is that the previous one which consisted of rotting wood was probably installed in the 80's, and any uninvited guest would only have had to blow on it to enter my house, uninvited. I didn't sleep well for the first 8 months living in the house while waiting for it to be done.

I'm Team Farmer, laws should allow homeowners to keep a gun in the house for use on such an occasion as me and my DC would be no match for 3 armed men, and would be traumatised for life if we were ever put in this situation.

I feel sorry for the farmer, no sympathy for the burglar, if they weren't breaking in to his home they wouldn't have been shot, tough luck on the burglars.