to ask your thoughts on this? Fatal shooting during burglary

[itsjustataste]

Happened near me very recently and our community seems very torn with lots of people slinging insults at both sides. Lots of people shouting about playing stupid games, win stupid prizes etc... whilst others calling the shooter a murderer.

I find it very sad that someone so young has ultimately lost their life and has got mixed up in this sort of thing.

BUT that being said, I don't have any ill feeling toward the farmer either and cannot say that I wouldn't do the same if faced with 3 people breaking into my home, especially if I had my children in the house.

The other 2 suspects arrested for aggravated burglary meaning a weapon was involved and there had been a break in at the same home the night previously too.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-68942085.amp

There is a you tube video of a woman in Eastern Europe (home security)
Three masked men broke in while they were in the house ( burglar alarms weren’t set)

The seven Whippets the family own didn’t alert!

The family said they were grateful that the dogs weren’t hurt in any way- CCTV shows puzzled dogs around the men- in fact when exiting the garden, the men made sure the back gate was secured so Whippets couldn’t escape!

Bulgarian Police never caught the men who were unarmed.

Home invasion when homeowners are present is terrifying.

Let's hope that this incident can cause a change in the law in regards to defending one's home with weapons. Homeowners should be allowed to defend themselves with any weapon in their house.

I’m not sure you understand what it is like to have burglars in your house in the middle of the night when you are in there. It’s far more than a threat to property. It’s severe trauma that can remain for decades. After it happened to us, my parents had to have a panic button installed in my bedroom when I was 12 because I was so fucking traumatised and terrified. Even then I often used to go and sleep on my brother’s or my parents’ floor as I was so terrified. The floor - not a mattress. I was terrified to the extent that I couldn’t sleep in my bed.

When my kids were little and my dh occasionally was away for work, I’d tell my kids they were coming for a sleepover in my bed and after they fell asleep, I used furniture to barricade my bedroom door.

it’s way more than property. You don’t understand the terror.

killing is justified

Tragic but they had it coming.

Tell me you've never been burgled by 3 armed men without telling me.
It is impossible to act this rationally as per your post when faced with this situation. It's exactly how a court case will go though. All those judgements have to be made reasonably and within legal tests on the margins at 1.30am, on your own, faced by 3 armed men not sitting at a desk talking about insurance claims and property. Exactly how do you know they were only stealing property. What angle does the gun have to be at, or the metal bar height above their head before the insurance claim is not your only thought. Respectfully, you genuinely don't have a clue.

They may well have had weapons on them at the farm and that’s why they were arrested for aggravated burglary. But that’s not the only possibility.

If the police had a report of weapons from the farmer (or any other witness) and the burglars didn’t have weapons on them when arrested, the police would still arrest for aggravated burglary so they could investigate - e.g. search for weapons.

Another possibility that would fit the scenario is that the guy arrested later in the car had a weapon in the car with him them. This could make the police consider aggravated burglary too, and then investigate whether the weapon had been at the farm with the burglars. I believe he was arrested later than the injured guy so a check of news reports might be able to dispel that, but I couldn’t find anything in a quick look.

Utter madness. A law like that would be so ripe for abuse. Don't like who's turned up on your doorstep? Stab them with a vegetable peeler, say you were defending yourself and you'll be off the hook because the law lets you!

And to say a knife that is at arms length is not a threat is plain ridiculous, but, again, that is what will be scrutinised by any court case.

I never understand the argument that it's wrong to kill a burglar on the grounds that "this country doesn't have the death penalty for burglary". Firstly, if someone breaks into your house, you don't know why they're there. They could be burglars, they could be rapists, they could be murderers. Breaking into someone's home is inherently threatening - and in this case, they'd all brought weapons.

Secondly, the primary purpose of killing a burglar is self-defence, not punishment. If a man attempted to rape a woman and she managed to grab a knife and stab him, I doubt anyone would call for her to be jailed because "we don't give rapists the death penalty". Everyone (except for MRAs) would agree that she had every right to defend herself.

While perhaps the outcome was inevitable, I think it's more than a little sad. It's awful.

I think classism plays a role in MN saying stuff like "the thieving little scrote/worm/etc deserves to die" – would they have said the same for e.g. an Eton or Bullingdon Club dare gone wrong? No, they'd be simpering in sympathy.

No matter how awful the teen's actions were, it's not like I believe in the death penalty as a punishment, especially for actions at that age. However I don't blame the farmer obviously as his intention was presumably just to defend not to kill.

Of course I can. You were the one who brought up Jean Charles De Menezes.

No I didn't

In the US ( in nearly all states) they have a felony homicide law which, in circumstances like this case, would lead to the accomplices being charged with murder.

Oh come on, they weren’t visiting bringing gifts were they! What do you think they were doing there?!?! Three criminals broke into this poor farmers house in the middle of the night with weapons!
They weren’t bringing gifts, no. But we don’t know if they had broken into his house. As others have explained on this thread, farms have a lot of valuable and stealable stuff in the surrounding farm buildings. It’s quite possible they were in a barn, not his house, and that he would have had to go to them to confront them. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have done that, he needs to protect his property, but it’s not the same as being in a house having someone break in when you’re trapped inside. There may have been scope for him to warn them and give them a chance to leave without them threatening him or his family. Or they may have threatened him with guns or shot at him as soon as they saw him. We just don’t know what the scenario was.

So what attempts to get them to leave do you suggest we all make, if we find 3 armed burglars in our home?
I’ve responded to a different poster asking a similar question. In most situations them seeing you there is warning enough (and I have experience of this). But if you’re going to say something I would suggest more swearing and threatening and less pleading.

@CoatRack "Circumstances are irrelevant"

Oh,don't be silly-of course they're not! Shooting someone because they are about to shoot you is one thing. Shooting someone who saw your gun and ran away is completely different.

Sad for everyone, but how can you possibly make a judgement before an investigation

There is more to this than is being reported. But I did think that from the start.

If the other person has a gun you have to shoot them before they shoot you, even if they are running away they could still turn around & shoot you.

The burglar wasn't shot because he intended to steal, he was shot because he was an armed threat. If I couldn't hide or escape I'd have shot him too rather than wait to find out what he might do to me.

We don't need a law to be able to defend ourselves in our homes, as we already have the right to use reasonable force to defend ourselves.

The law also provides that any death in these circumstances should be investigated. The police don't just wave their hand and say "Ah well, it was a burglar." Quite rightly, the circumstances have to be investigated.

My sympathy is with the farmer. If someone breaks into my home I'm grabbing a knife and will kill if I can/necessary, my son is my priority not some random who breaks into my house! Far from feeling sad I think I'd feel fucking furious that someone had put me in that situation whereby I am now facing prison when all I was doing is chilling in my own home. I feel angry the farmer is going through this through no fault of his own, poor bloke.

We don’t know what happened but I know of some rural gangs who steal things for money and have heard horrendous things that they have done including rape, torture, putting people in cages, filming the torture and setting fire to farm buildings. I know the victims, some things are not even reported through fear of the gang. Who knows what they threatened the farmer with? It will come out but one thing I have learnt is the “nice lad” who sits down in front of his nan can be a very different person in another situation.

That would not be a reflection of the legal position. If someone is fleeing from you and not in the act of turning around to shoot you, and you shoot and kill them, you would almost certainly be guilty of murder (though I’m sure we could come up with scenarios that would test that). Because you aren’t in imminent danger if they are running away from you and you have the option to wait and only shoot if they start to turn to shoot at you.

Every farmer I know (quite a few as I live in a rural area) owns a firearm and/or shotgun. Legally, to deal with vermin.

More fool anyone who breaks into a farmhouse.

Anyone who has been a victim of burglary knows how awful it is. My sympathy lies with the farmer. He was protecting life and property. He must have been pretty scared and full of adrenaline to have pulled that trigger.

If there were harsher penalties for theft and burglary maybe there'd be fewer of them.