to ask your thoughts on this? Fatal shooting during burglary

[itsjustataste]

Happened near me very recently and our community seems very torn with lots of people slinging insults at both sides. Lots of people shouting about playing stupid games, win stupid prizes etc... whilst others calling the shooter a murderer.

I find it very sad that someone so young has ultimately lost their life and has got mixed up in this sort of thing.

BUT that being said, I don't have any ill feeling toward the farmer either and cannot say that I wouldn't do the same if faced with 3 people breaking into my home, especially if I had my children in the house.

The other 2 suspects arrested for aggravated burglary meaning a weapon was involved and there had been a break in at the same home the night previously too.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-68942085.amp

If it was retribution as the guys tried to escape as so many on here seem to think is fine then he is a MURDERER. And that trumps burglar in the evil shit stakes."

Then we'll just have to disagree. I regard this scenario as the farmer doing society a massive favour by obliterating a vile, worthless piece of shit. Burglers are utter sub-human scum.

@TerryFuckwit I think you are maybe living up to your user name here. Yes burglars are scumbags. But worse than murderers? Hahahaha. Yeah right.

I am not going to judge the rights and wrongs of this case. However, just to be clear on the law, you are allowed to defend yourself and your property with reasonable force. What is reasonable depends on the circumstances and the courts accept that, in the heat of the moment, you may go beyond what is strictly reasonable. However, you cannot carry on attacking an intruder when it is clear you are not in danger, nor can you pre-plan a trap for someone rather than involve the police.

The fact the farmer in this case has been arrested on suspicion of murder suggests that the police have evidence that he overstepped the mark. However, there isn't enough information yet to know what happened. I certainly won't be expressing any views until we know a lot more.

Tony Martin's case is often misrepresented. Much of what is often trotted out (including by the press) seems to be based on Martin's version of events, ignoring the fact that forensic evidence proved beyond doubt that he was lying. It is also often overlooked that his shotgun license had been taken away after he shot at someone who was driving away after taking some apples from his orchard and that he had never held a license that would have allowed him to own the gun he used. The jury were given three options - murder, manslaughter and not guilty. As with any case, it was open to them to find Martin not guilty if they disagreed with the law. They chose murder. This was subsequently reduced on appeal to murder on grounds of diminished responsibility due to evidence that Martin was suffering from paranoia, exacerbated by depression.

I don't think anyone should be shooting people but also feel no sympathy for the dead bloke.

I’ve worked across seVeral areas of criminal justice for 30 years. I used to believe in rehabilitation. Having been part of the system, I can tell you it doesn’t happen and offenders go on to reoffend.

Remember the two men who were jailed for a revenge attack on a fleeing would-be burglar?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/dec/14/jail-brothers-burglar-cricket-bat

The public was enraged by this, and also because the beating left him with permanent brain damage, meaning he was unfit to stand trial and got off scott free for his crime.

As a very quick, very famous example, is the Chatsworth estate not in Derbyshire? The estate where they farm (I believe) over 2500 acres of arable land? How do you think they harvest the crops?
ETA I have just googled, it’s 2700 acres of arable land.
Perhaps you are suggesting they do not own their own equipment and a contractor is brought in from another county? Seems very strange, but perhaps.

also eta I will now leave this little tangent here i think, it’s irrelevant to the overall thread.

I don’t think anyone on here is making the assumption that the burglars were blameless, are they?

I’came face to face with burglars while alone in a flat at the top of a massive empty house. It was terrifying. It tells us nothing about this case.

You put a wok next to your bed, because you don't have a gun. Farmers have guns. They will reach for a gun, because it's there. If you were burgled a 2nd time, and you had access to a gun or a wok, and the guy was at the foot of your bed, at 3am, with a weapon, what would you reach for? Let's at least get real here.

As far as I’m concerned this farmer has done his local community a favour.

‘Cheeky chappy/talented footballer/lovable rogue’ is always trotted out when these vile young men finally experience some shitty consequences for their shitty actions. I’m sorry that a mother has lost her son but the fact that there is even a discussion about backlash against the farmer shows that the apple hasn’t fallen far from the tree. These people think they can do whatever they want and they believe they’re immune, because of our weak policing and laws.

Scum of the earth, he got what he deserved.
Feel so sorry for the farmer.

Except it shouldn't be classed as murder. And it certainly wasn't premeditated, unlike the scummy burglars actions.

I can see your point but I do disagree with you. I have been targeted by 'little shits' who started off by burgling my house, and then over the next year stole my (very soft and gentle) dog, (they even argued with me in front of their entire family, saying she was their dog, whilst she was trying to get to me and wagging her tail! The family did nothing at all and just stood by!) they punctured my car tyres, broke every panel in my green house, stole my garden furniture and generally made my life a misery. They were about that age and I wasn't much older, mid twenties and new to the area. It got to the point where I was afraid to leave my house because they were always whizzing around on bikes and asking me where I was going. I don't know what started it, but I was a clear target from the moment I moved in. The police told me that they were a gang of dealers and users on the estate, so I initially felt sorry for them and kept my head down.

I sold up and got out of there after a couple of years, but I could as I had no ties. It wasn't linked to my livelihood and I was a single person. It just took a little longer as I had bought the property. But for farmers, it isn't so simple.

I imagine this farmer has had repeated incidents. It's not a first instinct to resort to such violence, these are the actions of someone who has been repeatedly provoked and who is scared for his safety, and for his family. As a mother now, I would absolutely challenge anyone who dared to invade our home repeatedly. I obviously don't have weapons in the home, but I don't think it is so black and white as murder trumps burglary. There is clearly a backstory which needs to be considered.

You don’t really need combine harvesters for livestock farms. There’s very little arable farming in the High Peak area.

Jamie Oliver had some very expensive equipment stolen from his farm. The criminals did - as most vehicle criminals do nowadays - parked the vehicles away from a road for a few days to see if they had trackers.
The police were told the location, did nothing and Jamie's staff retrieved everything. Stealing things is easy, safely offloading stolen goods is trickier, which is why the 'usual suspects' are usually responsible.

I know, I am a farmer myself, my point is that it is completely inaccurate to say there’s no combines at all in Derbyshire. And I was talking about the arable part of the chatsworth estate, not all of it.
eta and I said I was going to leave this now! Can’t listen to myself apparently.

Disgusting. No way should those brothers have been convicted of a crime let alone sent to prison.

"Except it shouldn't be classed as murder. And it certainly wasn't premeditated, unlike the scummy burglars actions."

But you know nothing about whether either side was pre-meditated! That's my whole point!!

And to the pp saying I used a wok because I didn't have a gun - I mean yes. Sure. But I don't have a problem with the farmer shooting the burglars if he was defending himself or his family. I've said that quite a few times. I do have a problem with all the morons on here who are saying burglars all deserve to die while knowing absolutely nothing about the case in point. It's a bloody good job we don't have the death penalty when we could have people like that on the juries.

Yes. Also disturbing to think that so many people think a 19 yo deserves to die for burglary whether the farmer was justified in self defence or not. 19 years old is a child if MN is to be believed. It’s easy to say you’d shoot but I think when it came to actually taking a life most people would massively struggle with that. Even if they’d shot on instinct, which I appreciate you might, the aftermath would be horrendous. Some people on here seem to think the farmer should be proud of himself. Seems people haven’t really moved on from being medieval peasants.

We should bring back the death penalty. Why are we, as tax payers paying for scum bags to live in jail? 3 square meals a day, no worries about bills. Murderers, rapists, child molesters.....get rid of them.

Accidentally stumbled onto a big stockpile of stolen farm and construction equipment once. Felt quite lucky to get away unnoticed

Jesus wept. And we’re supposed to be civilised.

@Grandmasswagbag it's very reminiscent of the American deep south in the 1920s that we see in films. Pitchforks and lynchings. Maybe next is KKK? Let's hope not.

Give me ONE good reason, why Myra Hindley and Ian Brady should not have been given a lethal injection.

"But you know nothing about whether either side was pre-meditated! That's my whole point!!"

So you think they were just out for a nice stroll at 1 o'clock in the morning on the farmer's property and suddenly decided to burgle the place while they were there? 😂😂😂

Jesus, some of the comments on this thread now gleefully celebrating the shooting of a person. I can see why law campaigners want to do away with trial by jury.