to ask your thoughts on this? Fatal shooting during burglary

[itsjustataste]

Happened near me very recently and our community seems very torn with lots of people slinging insults at both sides. Lots of people shouting about playing stupid games, win stupid prizes etc... whilst others calling the shooter a murderer.

I find it very sad that someone so young has ultimately lost their life and has got mixed up in this sort of thing.

BUT that being said, I don't have any ill feeling toward the farmer either and cannot say that I wouldn't do the same if faced with 3 people breaking into my home, especially if I had my children in the house.

The other 2 suspects arrested for aggravated burglary meaning a weapon was involved and there had been a break in at the same home the night previously too.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-68942085.amp

No, definitely me misreading!

Well yes. We don’t know if the burglars knew he was there at the time they were shot.

I do not believe the property owner did anything wrong personally. I do think it's sad a 19 year old has lost their life, but unfortunately caused by their own actions

Totally agree, OP
I'm so anti firearms I'm off the scale, but realistically farmers have them and that's the risk they took in breaking in repeatedly

We don’t know that they took weapons with them. They’ve been arrested for aggravated burglary, but the farmer’s been arrested for murder. Doesn’t mean they actually did exactly what they’ve been arrested for. The farmer, for instance, may have thought in the darkness and fear of a burglary, that they had something with them when they didn’t.

But assuming they did take a weapon - that could be a firearm that they brandished towards him, but it could also be a pen knife tucked away in a pocket, or a crowbar or screwdriver or something else that could be used as a weapon but might have primarily been about breaking into the property. Which doesn’t make it okay - obviously the presence of a weapon increases risk and preparation to use violence, even just to get away, makes them an even bigger danger than a criminal who doesn’t prepare for that. But it doesn’t mean it was necessarily a threat to the farmer at the time he shot them.

just donated . Feel sorry for the family of the dead boy but he was on the wrong path in life and he caused his own death.
The poor farmer has to live with what he has done - his life is effectively ruined .
It was aggravated burglary they had weapons - I heard machetes. Also heard £30 K of farm equipment already taken .
Waking up to armed robbers in the middle of the night in your home ! Horrid .

A knife, a baseball bat, crowbar, hammer or CS spray would also be classed as an offensive weapon, so we do not yet know that the burglars had firearms.

Obviously burgling with any kind of weapon is unacceptable, but what they had will inform the judgment about whether reasonable force was used.

Really you would have to be very stupid to go armed to rob a farmers house wouldn't you?
It's well known that all farmers have guns and are bound to be territorial.
Kind of natural selection - weeding out the terminally stupid.

Yes, almost anything can be considered to be an offensive weapon if the person intends* *to use it to cause injury.

There are some things that are designed to cause injury (like throwing stars and knuckledusters) which are automatically classed as offensive weapons, then there are weapons which have been adapted from innocent objects (like deliberately breaking a bottle to attack someone).

And then there are things that aren't made or adapted to cause injury but are carried/used for that purpose. It could be baseball bat, it could be a pair of scissors. You might have a perfectly innocent reason to have it so a carpet fitter on his way home from a job might reasonably have a Stanley knife in his trouser pocket or I might have a chunky metal lock and chain in my backpack when I'm cycling.

But if you're carrying those things (or have them stashed by your bed) for no justifiable reason and are intending to use them as a weapon, even if it's for your own protection, then they can all be treated as an offensive weapon. So, as your police sergeant friend suggests, don't leave a cricket bat by the bed unless you actually play cricket.

But most likely the farmer would have been fearful for his life and the lives of any family in the house. He had to make a split-second decision. He wouldn’t have had the opportunity to ascertain whether the burglars were the scum of the earth or lads who’d made poor decisions. Safer to assume the former.

Team farmer here.

You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes 🤷‍♂️

All my sympathy lies with the man whose house was broken into.

'Aggravated burglary' - doesn't that mean with weapons?

Reminds me of the Tony Martin case.

"Because it would help the farmer. If they had guns too, it's more likely the CPS won't proceed with charges against him on the ground of self-defence and for it not being in the public interest to pursue a prosecution."

Oh right. Except a minute ago you don't think they deserved to be "gunned down and murdered" whatever they were doing and claim that you'd never "shoot into a crowd of people".

You weren't asking what they were armed with because you hoped it would help the farmer. You were asking because you think that if it wasn't a gun then it isn't so bad. You didn't know aggravated burglary means they were armed.

And this is why social media is such a mess. It's a free for all with people making bold statements that affect people's lives when they don't have any experience on the subject whatsoever.

They have been accused of aggravated burglary, meaning they carried weapons.

Only seems fair that the farmer had a weapon too 🤷‍♂️

Poor farmer, I'm definitely on his side, even if he was lying in wait for them. The world would be a much better place if there was a cull of scumbags (yes I know, we can't do that, but it's my go to day-dream). And I'm kind of glad the man who died was so young because he probably hasn't passed his genes on and be raising another generation of shitty people. In my dreams I'd take the lot of them out, totally clear out the scumbags and their spawn. I bet this wasn't his first offence either.

Visitor from Yorkshire last night. Telling us a story of a man who was thrown out of a pub with a bottle in his hand. He broke the bottle and slashed at a woman at the bus stop.

But most likely the farmer would have been fearful for his life and the lives of any family in the house. He had a make a split-second decision. He wouldn’t have had the opportunity to ascertain whether the burglars were the scum of the earth or lads who’d made poor decisions. Safer to assume the former

Yep- do people not understand how our brains actually work? if our amygdala had to consider the motivations or background of intruders before taking action we would be dead already. Thats why our brains work subconsciously to keep us safe- you see a threat, you deal with it given the information that you perceive at the time. If you were crossing the road and a car came at you, you'd move. Your brain wouldnt take 5 minutes to work out its speed and velocity before making a decision to engage your legs.

Can you point to the report that says the farmer was woken up and in his pyjamas when the burglars were shot? Because I don’t think your assumptions are safe.

You may very well turn out to have guessed correctly, but thankfully there will be a full police investigation and most likely trials of both the farmer and the remaining burglars before final conclusions are drawn.

This country has gone to shit, and the number of people with absolutely no critical thinking skills whatsoever is staggering, but at least we have the presumption of innocence for all suspects before a judgment is made.

If a member of my friends/ family was an armed robber and got shot in the process of a break in the last thing I'd do would be make a song and dance about defending them locally or in the media. I'd be so ashamed. The poor farmer. He's the victim here.

If someone breaks into your house with weapons then I think it's fair to assume that they intend to use those weapons. I would protect my family with any means I had. If that meant killing someone then so be it. I totally back the farmer.

Oh right. Except a minute ago you don't think they deserved to be "gunned down and murdered" whatever they were doing and claim that you'd never "shoot into a crowd of people".

I don't think they deserved to be gunned down, no.

You weren't asking what they were armed with because you hoped it would help the farmer. You were asking because you think that if it wasn't a gun then it isn't so bad. You didn't know aggravated burglary means they were armed.

I stated in my first comment on the thread that I have huge sympathy for the farmer, so yes, I hope he is able to mount a decent defence. Do I think he should go entirely unpunished for killing someone? No.

And this is why social media is such a mess. It's a free for all with people making bold statements that affect people's lives when they don't have any experience on the subject whatsoever.

Right back at you.

Aggravated burglary is a criminal offence set out in section 10 of the Theft Act 1968. It's more severe than ordinary burglary because it means that some kind of firearm, imitation firearm, "weapon of offence" or explosive has been involved.

The situation would be that your property had been subjected to attempted burglary the night before.

All news outlets are reporting that the boy who was killed was IN the property, two other people were either in your property or outside of it and all three had some sort of weapon.

You wake up to be faced with that, potentially with your family in the house. You are in the middle of nowhere and even if police are dispatched immediately they would not reach you for a while, and you have a gun. What would you do?

I think I’d be capable of murder to protect my children. I hope this is never tested, obviously.
I think in a situation most of us have never/will never have to encounter it’s hard to judge the actions of someone in fear.
however, I do feel sad for the young man.

Actually as far as I know it does legally , as defence is supposed to be proportional. So if they bring baseball bats you are not supposed to use a gun in defence .
Also guns are supposed to be locked away .

IMO I don’t agree with the law totally as in the dark and in the middle of the night I don’t see how you can check what weapons your assailant is carrying and whether they are willing to use them .

my sympathies lie with the farmer unless more information comes to light .

"Weapon of offence" can also mean knife, machete, baseball bat, crowbar, etc. It still doesn't confirm the burglars were armed with guns.

I am totally team farmer.

The only thing I would say is that if an armed robber broke into our house, one of us would have to distract the robber while the other one if us

Went the place were we hide the safe key
Go to safe to get the gun cabinet keys
Go to the gun cabinet (on a different floor)
Open both cabinets - rifles in one, ammo in the other.
Open the locked box containing the ammo.
Load the ammo into the magazine

THEN we could shoot the buggers.

In the meantime the armed robbers have probably left or shot us.

To be able to shoot someone on your property in a short space of time may mean your guns and ammo were not locked away.

That might be an issue for the farmer.

But, I am team farmer so I hope not.