To de-arrange the funeral?

[Funeraldilemma1]

NC but reg poster.

An old person I’ll call Sam recently died. They were the parent of someone I’ll call Bob. Bob was severely neglected by Sam right from birth - his practical needs like feeding and washing not attended to with neighbours having to step in, frequently told he was unwanted, banned from the house if Sam had “company” over, I believe Bob spent some time in care but was never removed from Sam’s custody. They went NC around 30 years ago.

Sam has never acknowledged Bob’s existence. Gleefully told Bob he’d been written out of the will. Now they’ve died, some of the admin has fallen to a relative of Bob, as Bob can’t handle having any involvement due to lasting trauma. The relative has ascertained there may not be a will, and is going to deal with the admin and paperwork. Relative has been informed by friends of Sam that Sam wished for a lavish funeral, and had lots of local friends who liked them and want to attend a funeral, but these people never knew Sam had a child as they completely denied Bob’s existence. Sam’s friends have no idea of the abuse and neglect Bob endured.

Bob and his relative are not willing to arrange a funeral. They have said they don’t intend to carry out Sam’s wishes and want to cancel any pre-arranged plans Sam may have made. Friends of Sam feel this is cruel and they should “be the bigger people”. As there’s no will, Bob is legal next of kin so in a procedural sense he does have the final say but who is BU?

Another jolly good reason for Bob and the OP to pay out only the absolute minimum.

Paupers grave, rot

Interesting but practical dilemma.

Who claims Sam wanted a lavish funeral? By lavish, do you mean horse drawn carriage and a choir? Were there detailed plans drawn up by Sam?

Or do you simply mean he didn't want to be cremated and put into a carboard box and scattered over a muddy puddle?

Why does Sam have so many friends?

Or is there a large crowd of sadistic people lurking in your neighbourhood?

How do you know the veracity of Bob? Were you there to witness the glee with which Sam told Bob he was written out of the will?

What happened to Bob's mum? Is she dead? Because you'd think she and/or her maternal family would have more of an influence.

For whatever reason, how do you know Bob was not a trouble-making child, causing major disruption?

Does Bob have siblings?

How do you know what abuse and neglect Bob endured? Taken into care might also be for other criminal reasons. Damaged people can also be damaging.

And was Bob really cut out of the will?

I have to say if he wasn't, and if he'll feel better by getting his hands on every last penny, he should go for it. Dad is dead and can't care anymore.

If it's just an ethical problem, then just cremate dad, hand him over to friends and hold a small wake - none of which Bob has to attend.

Because seriously, whatever is spent on the funeral, was dad's money. Just bury or let his friends scatter him, and move on.

I don't know the full criteria but it's partly down to what's needed at the time, so not entirely predictable. Cause of death is definitely one - anything infectious is a no.

No, there are strict rules. Jokes aren't allowed, so I'm sure anything disparaging would be out of the question.

And headstones are expensive. Not worth it, even if it were allowed.

This post has it bang on the money.

Dear Bob, walk away from this shit. All the best to you

Why would they want to spend the best part of a grand on a head stone which could be deemed offensive.

The dead person Sam is Bob's mum.

I had to read it again to check! Cleverly written but I assumed Sam was female upon first reading!

To answer some questions: Sam was Bob’s mother. Bob’s account of his childhood is backed up by others who knew Sam and Bob when he was a child. Severe neglect like leaving him sat in his own faeces for extended periods as a baby/toddler has been mentioned. He has no siblings and there are no other surviving relatives. I have met Sam myself and heard her speak deeply unpleasantly about Bob, and her wish that she’d never been a mother.

Bob has not lived in the same neighbourhood as Sam for several decades. The friends wanting to throw a funeral party are mostly ones Sam made after her estrangement from Bob, and they don’t know of Bob’s existence because she denied that she ever had any children. The people who do know about Bob are sympathetic to his point of view. Sam told Bob herself that she was cutting him out of the will many years ago.

There are indications of Sam’s funeral wishes but no will. The paperwork we have found indicates a wish for Bob to be cut from the will. We have made the requisite enquiries to find out if one exists.

YANBU, OP. If Bob wants to preserve whatever inheritance he might have (and I would not blame him) then you or he need to apply to administer the estate and get involved in making arrangements before a friend of Sam's does. Reasonable funeral expenses can be deducted from the estate by someone who is making arrangements.

Banks will normally pay a basic funeral director's bill without requiring probate or letters of administration. However, they should not release funds for other expenses such as a wake without proof the person is able to make those decisions.

Expenses for a wake can only be paid from the estate if any beneficiaries who would be worse off because of it agree, so whatever "lavish" funeral the friends are wanting is unlikely to be available to them, even if there is a will, unless the friends themselves are the beneficiaries (at which point they may decide a lavish funeral is unnecessary). If an executor pays for expenses like these without the beneficiaries' permission, the executor can be sued for the money - it isn't theirs to decide to spend in this way.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

I can totally see why they have the strict rules that they do, but it does sound a bit like their ideal candidate would be somebody who was still generally very fit and healthy, and thus not available to them for quite some time

No, I guess you're probably right. Then again, you do see some very old graves from the time when people were in general (by modern standards) very matter-of-fact about death - so you can't necessarily tell whether they were being stoical/formal/masking their grief or potentially not on great terms with the deceased.

Why was it 'cleverly written'?

OP just happened to choose an ordinary pseudonym that can be used for a man or a woman - and in this case, it referred to a woman.

I can't see any hidden agenda or attempt at cunning here at all.

it does sound a bit like their ideal candidate would be somebody who was still generally very fit and healthy, and thus not available to them for quite some time

Yes, I think that's pretty much the case. In the peak of health apart from the minor matter of being dead.

There are indications of Sam’s funeral wishes but no will. The paperwork we have found indicates a wish for Bob to be cut from the will. We have made the requisite enquiries to find out if one exists.

Sam sounded really nasty before, but now, that doesn't go nearly far enough to describe her.

So she didn't bother to leave any wishes about what should happen to her assets except for that she didn't want Bob to get any of it? That is especially evil.

I'd understand if Bob had turned out to be a serial killer or drugs lord or something; but she is literally blaming him for her having done what it took for him to be born, without any prior knowledge or agency on his part whatsoever. Pure hatred in a human form.

Are there any other relatives on the scene, OP, apart from you and Bob?

If not, and if there is no will except for the nasty spiteful insistence that Bob receive nothing, might it be the case that it would all end up coming to you by default, under intestacy law - and then you would obviously be at liberty to draw up a deed of variation to give what is now YOUR money straight to Bob?

Honestly, stuff whoever the ‘other people’ are, and double stuff being the ‘bigger people’. If anything good is to come of this person’s life, don’t spend any money on a freeloader piss up. Bob can decide to use it for therapy or he can decide to donate it all to a charity.

Best part of a grand And the rest! We are in the process of getting a headstone for my parents' plot. It's eyewateringly expensive, but it's what my Mum wants.

If things have been paid for let them go ahead, if not a basic funeral should be given with any money lift or life insurance from the deceased.

I think you've misunderstood the position in law. If there is no will, there is no way for any inheritance to go to anyone but Bob, as Bob is the only person entitled to Sam's estate under the Intestacy Act. If Sam had left a spouse or other children, it would have been different, but that isn't the case here. No other relatives will get anything.

Wow I thought they started at £800/900 but then it's a long time since I've heard anyone discuss the cost of them. Most of my relatives etc have been cremated.

Thanks again for everyone’s input. If there happens to be any probate law experts here I’d love to know what the legal position is on funeral arrangements - I assume we have to wait to find out if there’s a legal will or not before doing anything? Or can anyone in possession of a death certificate arrange a funeral regardless of a will?

I really really really hope there is no will and it all goes to Bob.

Hi, certainly in Scotland any one can arrange the funeral. Providing they have the death cert.

I think your as well to speak with the local undertakers. See what they say.

I assume that if their is a will they'd be a copy of it with the records for the plot and any pre-paid funeral plans