Do you still think it's all about calories in vs calories out and fat people are not disciplined enough ?

[deebate]

I've been doing a lot of online research over the years around diet/ exercise and what's the answer. How can I keep fit and be healthy.

I've tried various things and I am generally a believer in calories in vs calories out. Which seems to be the favoured method on here.

If anyone complains they're struggling with losing weight, it must be because they're not counting everything etc.

In any case, I've now stumbled across a number of podcasts of different doctors and nutritionists in the field talking about gut microbes and sugar spikes etc and how actually it's really not just about calories at all.

What's the consensus on here about all this ?

It can be, of course ! But not every time.

Yes, that's what makes sense. As a post menopausal woman I read over and over that weight gain after menopause is inevitable and unavoidable and that diets 'stop working'. When in fact, the truth is, it's as possible as it ever was to lose weight, but you need to accept that it will require a lower calorie intake than it did when your metabolism was faster. Such a low one in fact that a lot of people would rather be a bit heavier than live with the restrictions. Which is a perfectly valid choice, but a choice nonetheless.

@deebate blood fat control was very good, blood sugar control was poor (I get very shaky an hour after eating sweet foods, and have an inflammatory health condition which is what motivated me to do ZOE)
My microbiome was very good, despite having taken ABs three times last year. I'm sure plant diversity and eating lots of fermented food did help with that

No one said it isn’t hard, it is. I am this exact demographic of person everyone is talking about and I have done it. I have had years of hormone issues and even had a hysterectomy age 40, but at the end of the day, I was eating too much. I had reasons why, but now I eat less and track what I eat, I am smaller. I’m also older - I can’t expect worked at age 21 to work at 41.

I wonder if there is anyone on MN who is just happy with themselves, be they big or small. Who doesn't ascribe a moral value to the size of a persons body.

Ah thanks for sharing ! That's cool !

I'm happy to hear your microbiome was very good! That gives me hope it all makes sense.

My score was bad indeed. I eat a reasonable amount of veggies, but always the same boring ones perhaps. And probably not enough. I'm the sort of person who can eat the same stuff over and over. I eat a lot of chicken and salads / potatoes and wholewheat bread. That's what I would say my diet is mainly.

My blood fat control was excellent and my blood sugar was poor. I was surprised I got an excellent blood fat score. I thought they'd all be awful. So it's telling me to eat a lot of nuts / avocados / olive oil.

Anyway let's see how it goes.

I don’t ascribe to any particular body but my own. I have chosen to make it smaller to keep my health and mobility for longer as I age. I am 43, im not getting younger! There was a great thread on the weight loss forum asking why people were losing weight and barely anyone said it was just for looks and vanity it was all for health and mobility reasons it was really enlightening

Its probably also a good thing to stop perpetuating the myth that anyone who does want a smaller body is just vain and shallow.

@PotatoPudding

If I’m right, Slimming World has a focus on putting certain foods together or avoiding putting them together as opposed to counting calories (that’s what my brother tells me).

No. Slimming world's focus is low fat plus minimising cereal/bread (the healthy extra) and only small amounts of sugar and fat (syns). It also encourages eating very low calorie veg/salad and fruit (a third of your plate).

You are right that when it first started meals focused on 'protein' (red days) or carbs (green days) but a small amount of the other food type was always alllowed.

And despite what most MNers seem to think - the only yogurt you can eat unlimited is low fat natural yogurt .

me. But I am a retired Occupational Therapist. Part of that is to not ascribe a moral value to any choice that anyone makes that does not directly negatively affect others.

I've been reading a book by Michael Gregor (How not to Diet) when he talks about this . The book is quite hard going but he seems to suggest that eating a lot of veg and whole grains will change your gut microbiomes and also that eating a lot of fibre, the body doesn't take on board all the calories of the food .

I'm not sure I'm convinced with everything he says as he is advocating totally plant based - and is talking a lot about farming practices but I'm not sure if what applies with meat and fish farming in the US would be the same in the UK.

It's quite interesting and he's giving loads of stats and quoting trials but it seems to be going against most other recent recommendations (eg eat protein / don't eat protein; eat fat / don't eat fat etc).

It is CICO but calories in and calories out are not easy to determine.

So say 100 calories of a donut - v refined, high sugar, highly digestible so say 100 calories in.

100 calories of white fish - for the sake of argument, 100% protein. 30% of energy from protein is said to be used for its digestion as so hard to breakdown. So 70 calories in

Corn kernels 100 calories worth:

Corn - milled - 100 calories probably in as v digestible

Corn cooked kernels - fewer calories in as less digestible.

Corn raw kernels - less digestible than milled or cooked - significantly fewer calories in

The body is not like a calorimeter in this respect. I think this is why whole food diets are advocated - remove the processing and the calories available reduce.

This whole argument is a classic case of people trying to make different points with the same argument.

On a fundamental thermodynamic level, weight loss is about your net calories. If you are at a net loss, you will lose weight. Net gain, you will gain weight.
But for many people that isn't overly helpful in trying to lose weight. That brute force approach often doesn't work, because there are so many factors determining how many calories we actually take in or expend.

All this talk of hormones and such is relevant to determining hunger, energy levels and actually how much you eat, but it cannot directly change your weight. 'discipline' will only take you so far, and 'willpower' is very limited. If you ended up feeling very hungry despite being at a calorie surplus, you'll end up eating more.

I definitely don’t ascribe a moral value to the size of someone else’s body. Mine though? Yep. It’s ok for others to be overweight (and I genuinely don’t judge) but I will always feel ‘less than’ for being fat. Mainly because of the attitudes of people like some of those posting on this thread!

And despite what most MNers seem to think - the only yogurt you can eat unlimited is low fat natural yogurt .

• *That’s only a recent thing though because Mullerlites were free from when I started in the mid 90’s until a few years ago.

I've heard that works for some people but not for me, I never get sick of the same things (autism).

Calories in vs calories out is a good place to start and will drop weight to an extent, but I think to get really trim and knock down the body fat it has to be GOOD calories in. Getting enough protein and healthy fats, varied diet, fruit and veg, lean proteins etc. I detest diets like slimming world that push all the processed empty crap, yes it will help people lose a bit of weight initially but if you're looking to have a fitter stronger body it's going to do naff all. I think for the morbidly obese it's a good way to control portion sizes though and the calories in vs out is a good way to begin to encourage awareness over diet and movement. But if you're looking to tone up and become fitter it's a whole different ball game and not as simple.

You are so lucky. I was naturally slim without much effort all my life. But 5 years ago I put on lot of weight - thyroid and other reasons.
But being naturally slim for so long mean, I don't have those healthy habits like exercising regularly and eating mindfully.

When I am bored, I enjoy a treat. I am also not tall and enjoy motivation these days. But I enjoy cooking, so maybe there is hope. Can you share what app you are talking about?

Mmm. I eat a whole food vegan diet, and while plants certainly give a lot of bang for your buck in terms of saiety and portions sizes, and I've noticed multiple health benefits, as well as to my skin, hair and body shape (I no longer have belly fat or cellulite) I still manage to gain weight if I exceed 1700 calories a day. Perhaps if I didn't eat this way I'd gain weight on even fewer calories though. The best thing about super clean plant based eating is it removes all the foods I used to over eat.

I am actively trying to lose weight and improve my gut biome at the moment and maxing on variety of veg.
So each day am making to take to work a smoothie of avocado/broccol/spinach/ginger/asparagus/beetroot/V8juice/kefir -seasoned with Worcester sauce and Tabasco -is actually delicious 😁 Sweet treat is smoothie of summer berries.
Mostly frozen so minimal faff.
Remains to be seen if I do lose weight but at least is better nutritionally than the sandwiches I was eating and very filling so no hunger pangs.

This. I don’t generally count calories but started after a particularly frustrating struggle to lose weight. I was down to 1250 calories per day and not losing anything. I decided to switch back to the high protein, high fat diet that I used to follow in my younger days when training and immediately began to panic that I was struggling to stay below 1800 calories per day (literally 3 meals protein and veg, bit of Greek yogurt or kefir, few berries). I needed have worried as I lost 1/2 stone in the first week. It’s not all about calories, the food quality counts too.

I think a lot/ most of it is good, but then that there are people who are ‘lucky’/‘unlucky’ in terms of metabolism/ hormone imbalances/ medication needs etc

Mostly. But really, it's the abundance of food that does us in. Our crazy little brain finds it impossible to say "stop".

When people have less, I think they eat a fair bit more carefully anyway. Our society is pretty excessive, never mind the waist lines

I'm learning the quality of my food is important to minimise hunger. I can drop weight OK but then it goes back on as I haven't made permanent changes.

I like slimming world as it's easy to follow and eat healthier diet plus having small amounts of treats. No counting as I get super bored counting calories then binge

I don't know if I have a definitive opinion, but pre-pregnancy when I was on the implant I would eat a snack about an hour or so after waking up, usually a bagel, then nothing all day till dinner time, both were always well under my daily calorie allowance, I didn't exercise much at all and was overweight.

Cut to having my contraceptive implant removed to TTC and the weight just dropped off me staggeringly fast with no diet or exercise changes.
My mum was surprised at how sudden the change was.

Now ofc I'm about 6 months pregnant, ravenous & eating like a horse however, so have gained weight again in excess of just the pregnancy.
So times they do be a changin'!
Bottom line, I think there's a LOT of different aspects to weight gain/loss. Some caloric, others hormonal, but really- who knows?
At the end of the day what works works, and what doesn't doesn't!

Smoothie and worcestershire sauce?! That's a combo I thought id never see!
You could probably do with some more protein in your diet though, will keep you fuller for longer!