Do you still think it's all about calories in vs calories out and fat people are not disciplined enough ?

[deebate]

I've been doing a lot of online research over the years around diet/ exercise and what's the answer. How can I keep fit and be healthy.

I've tried various things and I am generally a believer in calories in vs calories out. Which seems to be the favoured method on here.

If anyone complains they're struggling with losing weight, it must be because they're not counting everything etc.

In any case, I've now stumbled across a number of podcasts of different doctors and nutritionists in the field talking about gut microbes and sugar spikes etc and how actually it's really not just about calories at all.

What's the consensus on here about all this ?

Well this is part of the issue.

when I was preparing my own meals I would have sworn I was within my 1200 cals a day limit.

i gained weight.

when I went on a meal plan where food was provided, each day calorie controlled to 1200, I lost weight. Easily. At the expected 2lbs a week.

i am willing to bet that anyone saying they were on low calories and gained weight are overestimating or not calculating calories correctly.

it’s not an easy measure and it is only a rough guide. If you’re not losing weight, you need to revisit your intake and reduce accordingly.

I definitely don't think it's as simple as if two people eat the same amount of calories and exercised the same amount, that they would lose weight in the same way.
I can see that reality in my own life. I eat far more than I should and don't exercise any where near as often as I should. I have fluctuated weight only slightly between a size 10-12 for a decade. Size 12 seeming to be my upper limit and it takes minimal effort to go back down to a size 10. Basically, just not eating everything I feel like all the time and trying to walk a bit more regularly.
My husband works out every single day, lifting weights & cardio, he also eats a lot and more than me, but if he doesn't exercise for any period of time, he gains weight and quickly. He finds losing it very difficult, having to cut an excessive amount of calories to make any progress.
My sister has a personal trainer and works out multiple times as week, she eats less than me generally (though a less varied/healthy diet as she's not keen on fruit/veg), and is around a size 12. She wants to lose weight but finds it almost impossible, even when cutting out chocolate/desserts etc.
I just view myself as lucky in that it comes much easier to me to adjust my weight, it's not a big stress or effort in my part, I never actively work out, I just walk when I can, and I don't restrict any foods, but seeing the effort that others make to lose weight with less success, I know it's not as simple as people who are overweight are not making the right choices.
I also don't feel right to judge people for their weight because of this & generally because you don't know what people have going on in their lives, there are even many health issues that can affect people's weight.
I'm also a firm believer that food can be addictive and the worse addiction to overcome because you can never follow the same steps that have proven successful for beating alcohol/drug addictions.

Well yes, in the final analysis the first law of thermodynamics is what it is. You can't make energy disappear, full stop.
However, how different people maintain the calorie deficit they need to lose weight is not simple. Individual physiological and psychosocial factors make a huge difference and for many people what kind of food they eat does matter.
"Eat less, move more" is of course true, but is too simplistic to be of use to many. In my experience people who say that kind of thing are usually people who find it easy to do that, and to my shame I was one of them when I was young and fit. Now I am distinctly middle aged and have a disability I still know the truth of that statement but also that it is not so simple to achieve. I need to give a lot more thought to what the CI actually is and how I get more CO and have a lot more empathy for people who are overweight now. It is not a simple problem with easy answers.

You should eat less and move more for your general health and wellbeing it’s not to do with obesity. You may be small and sedentary with high cholesterol and muscle wastage - it’s still not good for you. I don’t think it’s a bad message for anyone it’s not just for people who are overweight. It might not be easy if you have let things get to the point where you are doing nothing about it but you can pick it back up - it’s just more effort to start from scratch over and over

It’s a very complex issue and blaming ourselves for a lack of willpower isn’t helpful. As I posted above, our relationship to food and eating is a massively complex thing. This diagram shows all the influences that mean blaming the individual for a lack of willpower is both wrong and deeply unhelpful.

Stress was the catalyst to my weight problem as well. I’d spent 34 years as a slim person before that seemingly damaging combination of severe stress/sleep deprivation/postpartum hormone issues over an extended period of time. It seemed to change my whole system. I’ve had no problem keeping the weight off since coming off Metformin thankfully, as it was a seriously distressing place to be!

I don’t doubt what you say about the 800 calories. I wasn’t losing weight on less than that either. Funny thing is my GP has now recommended trying to gain a small amount of weight and I can’t, despite eating a lot and not exercising excessively. I’ve always run about 5-8km four times a week (except during pregnancy), so I’m not mega fit or a sloth. Just somewhere in between

This thread seems still full of people who say you can’t count calories or must be secretly eating. On the F45 8 week program, which was grueling, we had food provided by an outsourced company so it was highly calorie controlled. I guess I must have been doing some secret sleep eating!

I think that’s what I was trying to say 😂

that's why I posted about my dogs. All of their food was controlled by me. If the skinny one had been way more active or a picky eater then I could have understood it.

@godmum56 not all dogs or humans are the same size or build, that’s why we have developed tools that will help calculate food intake. Dog food instructions is usually based on their weight/size and a vet would tell you if one dog was too fat for their breed and to reduce their food intake to keep them healthy, they may also tell you to feed the skinny one more as they might be underweight. Each dog has a mother/father and will take its genetics from their parents, my sister and I do not have the same body shape so we need to work out our diets individually to match our needs. She is tall and slim and I am shorter and stockier. What my sister can eat might be no good for me, but doesn’t mean I am exempt from any responsibility to adjust my nutrition to match my body/needs, the same as I don’t think you are meant to feed 2 different sized dogs the same portion of food, as the PP said they did, they also described 2 dogs that bred that had different body types and personalities

I have a scientific background, and I do feel that helps me to understand that there are a huge range of reasons why people are overweight. I also know that while being overweight does present health risks, so does being underweight. Also, a 'slim' person may not be that healthy - we all know that 'slim' person who can eat piles of rubbish and that 'not so slim' person who just needs to look at a cake to put a few lbs on, and so damage may well be happening within that slim looking body too! Our shape is partly genetic, of course we can be healthier by eating well and getting regular exercise, but ultimately some of us will be slimmer and some of us less so. There are recognised conditions, such as PCOS or the menopause, or medications, such as corticosteroids or some anti-depressants, which are associated with weight gain. Struggling with your weight, and feeling inadequate, can also lead to some folk eating to feel better - although that sounds counterintuitive it is really quite common. I do think that easy access (in some locations) to fast foods and/or takeaway foods doesn't help, especially for folk working long hours and/or feeling stressed/depressed/overwhelmed. I do think that it is a myth that unhealthy food is cheaper, however you do have to be prepared to eat in season and perhaps eat simpler foods sometimes - for example homemade vegetable soup can be really healthy, filling and nutritious but it doesn't always sound as appealing as a takeaway!

Well obviously.
But that's not what this thread is about. And nobody has said it's a bad message as far as I can see, just that it's not a very effective one in isolation.

As an overweight person atm... yes it is in part my laziness due to many factors, I have been slim and obsessive with food too (was a bit of a b*h like that). Like with many things... if you have never had those struggles you just can not understand it so simply mind your own business about it.

Which is all well and good if the default calorie intake at which you feel satiated is one where you mainrain a healthy weight. Bully for you .

Many overweight people never get that feeling of satiety.
Because they are resistant to or don't produce enough of the "you are full up, stop eating" hormones in response to food.

I could literally eat a 4 course meal then look for snacks soon after, because I feel hungry. Not greedy. Not emotional eating. I feel hungry.
Being hungry is a very difficult urge to resist .

I haven't really struggled with my weight to any significant degree, but that doesn't mean I don't understand that weight issues are often far from straightforward or that I don't have sympathy for those who are struggling for whatever reason. Some folk do only see things in black and white though, and assume that what works for them should also work for others, and if it doesn't then they are lazy/stupid/another derogatory term - clearly that's not true at all though!

I think we are in violent agreement here. If it was as simple as CICO then different genes would not make a difference. I have no idea who said that people were exempt from eating according to body type but it wasn't me!

Eh?

no one has said CICO is one size fits all. Of course genes, lifestyle, metabolism, muscle percentage, gut health, plus a million other things make a difference to how many calories each individual needs to maintain weight.

it’s still as simple as CICO. If you gain weight, reduce calories in and increase calories out. Because your neighbour is losing weight on 1200 calories in, it doesn’t follow that you will. You may need to eat less or increase exercise, or may lose on more.

if you are gaining weight, reduce your calories in and increase calories out. The actual numbers are irrelevant.

I think you can say the same for over consumption of anything, people who drink a lot find it hard to stop and some people feel drunk and unwell very quickly and are less tolerant. We still do not tell people it’s fine to drink heavily, although we understand there maybe reasons why they do, and people should be given support and understanding to try to stop or cut down.

@godmum56 the point is that just because you have a different body type doesn’t make CICO irrelevant? You adjust the CICO for your body type and level of activity. It’s still CICO

Ultimately it's a calorie deficit.

There are a 1001 ways of achieving that so it's a matter of finding one that works for you. There are also 1001 reasons why some people finder it harder than others. I'm lucky in that I basically view food as fuel, don't much like sweet things and eat very little processed foot.

I used to be able to eat whatever I liked in pretty much unlimited quantities and not gain an ounce. Post children I could no longer do that and I'm finding that as I get older the amount I can eat without gaining weight is continuing to fall. I've had to adjust to that.

And yes I do think UPF is to blame for a lot of the overconsumption. It's quickly digested and leaves people wanting more much sooner than raw or minimally processed food. Even foods touted as healthy carry traps. A glass of apple juice contains the juice from approx 3 apples. I would only eat one apple at a time. That's a big difference in calorie intake especially if the juice accompanies a meal.

I definitely don't think it's as simple as if two people eat the same amount of calories and exercised the same amount, that they would lose weight in the same way.

No one is saying that. You need to eat within a deficit for you.

thermodynamics is what it is. You can't make energy disappear, full stop.

This is irrelevant, when we burn fat it leaves our bodies as carbon dioxide and as water

Yes this is true. But blaming the individual for not counting calories correctly or lack of willpower isn't the way.

The way to do it is to point out that for one reason or another it IS actually harder for them and they'll need to find out why OR just drop their calories really low.

I find this subject fascinating.

I've been BMI 21-22 my whole life and have lost count of the number of people who have told me I'm "lucky".

I'm from a slim family so it's hard to separate nature from nurture. We are all active and we all cook from scratch. Equally we are tall with a more athletic build.

I'm grateful that I was never taught to equate food with comfort (I've seen so many upset toddlers given a biscuit... )

I'm a fidgety person who gets bored on the sofa so this probably helps.

It's always been important to me to stay slim and healthy so I've always cooked a lot of veg and stayed away from junk food. And for health and eco reasons if I need to go less than a mile I'll walk and less than 6 miles I'll cycle.

I did the ZOE programme and while logging meals I discovered that I eat 7+ fruit & veg a day, my diet is less than 12% UPF, and I consume about 2800 calories a day! I'd never counted a calorie in my life so this felt like a big number. I must be burning it off though, one way or another. The ZOE ethos is to count plants not calories though, and eat for health primarily.

I do have to exercise some restraint with cakes and chocolate, I guess I have the "satiety" gene or whatever it is though, because I can stop after one slice of cake.

I'd be so interested to swap lifestyles and diet with someone overweight to see if it actually made a difference.

Yes this is true. But blaming the individual for not counting calories correctly or lack of willpower isn't the way.

But sometimes that IS the problem. It is for me!

That's cool. I recently did Zoe too.

What was your gut health like, if I may ask ? Seeing as you eat so many plants already ? How about the rest of the tests ? I'm only nosy as I wonder if your scores were really good and that's what equates being slim etc.

You obviously don't need to share specifics if you don't want to.