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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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17
1dayatatime · 29/04/2024 14:21

The issue i see is that the conflict in Gaza creates anger on both sides. This anger leads to protests, the protests generate headlines. The headlines create further division within society especially amongst those that previously didn't care or didn't have a view ("you've got to pick a side").

Further division creates further polarisation and entrenched views which in turn creates more division and so on.

The effect of which is to create an angry divided society where the ability to listen to the other point of view is lost and peaceful compromise solutions become harder to reach.

LiterallyOnFire · 29/04/2024 14:21

Prescriptive and proscriptive.

biscuitnut · 29/04/2024 14:22

BlastedPimples · 29/04/2024 14:13

Not worried about the far right plotters? Just the Muslims?

I suggest you broaden your media.

Islam is a far right religion. What scares you about far right ideology should also scare you about Islam. They share the same beliefs

StaunchMomma · 29/04/2024 14:22

There've been a few goady posts like this on here recently.

Yet more pre-election shit-stirring, perchance?

biscuitnut · 29/04/2024 14:24

LiterallyOnFire · 29/04/2024 14:21

No, elements of Islam are politicised and extreme. (Same as Christianity and most other religions.)

Which is no comfort if you find yourself staring down the barrel of a fatwa, but it's still an important distinction. The fact that it won't be a delegation of your local neighbours (mainstream Muslim accountants, doctors, businesswomen etc) who come to fulfil the fatwa is significant. It's not a technicality.

It is not the entire religion that is so prescribe and proscriptive.

I would agree with that. Trouble is we don’t know who are the majority - nice normal people and who are the loony’s.

StaunchMomma · 29/04/2024 14:24

biscuitnut · 29/04/2024 14:22

Islam is a far right religion. What scares you about far right ideology should also scare you about Islam. They share the same beliefs

No, no they don't.

Every Muslim I know is a staunch Labour supporter, most probably because Islam teaches empathy and charity.

LiterallyOnFire · 29/04/2024 14:25

@biscuitnut can you offer any explanation for or support of your assertion that "Islam is a far right religion"? I can't tell if your being inflammatory on purpose or actually believe that?

EasternEcho · 29/04/2024 14:25

mrsdineen2 · 29/04/2024 13:53

Can someone help me understand all the "it's fox news" comments - are we saying they've photoshopped the article? Hired a thousand actors? Forced these men out onto the streets against their will just for an article?

Edited

Headline: "Protesters in Germany call for Islamic fundamentalism: 'Caliphate is the solution"

In the body of the article: "One of the signs read "Kalifat ist die Lösung," which translates to, "Caliphate is the solution."

Fox news is extremely apt at dog whistles to get the far right all riled up. They usually succeed.

StaunchMomma · 29/04/2024 14:25

LiterallyOnFire · 29/04/2024 14:25

@biscuitnut can you offer any explanation for or support of your assertion that "Islam is a far right religion"? I can't tell if your being inflammatory on purpose or actually believe that?

Sounds like she gets her (mis)information about Islam from the Tommy Robinson Press Office.

IClaudine · 29/04/2024 14:26

StaunchMomma · 29/04/2024 14:22

There've been a few goady posts like this on here recently.

Yet more pre-election shit-stirring, perchance?

Yep. Khan will win again in London regardless. Tories are going to be hurting badly on Friday.

IClaudine · 29/04/2024 14:26

StaunchMomma · 29/04/2024 14:25

Sounds like she gets her (mis)information about Islam from the Tommy Robinson Press Office.

Or maybe Susan Hall's campaign HQ?

LiterallyOnFire · 29/04/2024 14:29

Anyway, at the end of the day, there are British Muslims calling for a caliphate too. That doesn't mean there are hordes agreeing with them or that they are going to get a caliphate (which in any case is just another way of saying they want to live under Sharia law, but that word might be slightly less shocking to us now than "caliphate"). It's just a subgroup.

Similarly, Bible Belt Christians continue to campaign for more theocratic laws. The only difference is that they're having more success and have overturned Roe V Wade. Have nightmares about that.

Phphion · 29/04/2024 14:29

Small groups calling for the establishment of a caliphate have existed in Germany for over 40 years, as they have in many other countries, including the UK. This is nothing new.

Over the years, there has generally been a move away from the extreme right and fascist ideologies that were common amongst the leaders of the earlier groups towards a sort of revolutionary Islamic socialism. The main group involved in organising the protests in Germany is essentially a shell successor promoting the ideology of a now-banned, openly anti-semitic group formed in the Middle East almost 70 years ago. They actually have tended not to get on or align themselves with the Islamic State / ISIS because they have ideological differences around what makes a caliphate legitimate. One of the reasons these groups have never achieved much traction is because they spend as much time fighting amongst themselves as they do actually working towards any of their wider goals.

The fact that Fox News has now 'discovered' them does not mean that they are a new phenomenon, that they are doing anything different to what they have always done or that they are anywhere nearer to achieving their goal of establishing a caliphate. In fact the whole "establishing a caliphate" thing was not the point of these protests. The specific group involved in the protests in Germany holds protests all the time - this one was actually quite poorly attended by their standards. They held a protest (against a far-right politician) just last year in Hamburg with more than three times as many attendees.

Dulra · 29/04/2024 14:31

biscuitnut · 29/04/2024 14:24

I would agree with that. Trouble is we don’t know who are the majority - nice normal people and who are the loony’s.

You can say that about anyone from any religion or none.

LiterallyOnFire · 29/04/2024 14:32

LiterallyOnFire · 29/04/2024 14:25

@biscuitnut can you offer any explanation for or support of your assertion that "Islam is a far right religion"? I can't tell if your being inflammatory on purpose or actually believe that?

Actually i partially retract that @biscuitnut because I can see on reflection that the extreme of any conservative religion very easily lean hard right. But again, it's not the whole religion.

You're making yourself sound wildly unreasonable by stating things so baldly and oversimplifying.

LoreleiG · 29/04/2024 14:34

Mrsdyna · 29/04/2024 13:48

They were socialists to some extent. The government was pretty heavily invested in social programs, industry, and infrastructure.

The right needs to stop falsely claiming that the Nazis were socialists - The Washington Post

"Instead of controlling the means of production or redistributing wealth to build a utopian society, the Nazis focused on safeguarding a social and racial hierarchy. They promised solidarity for members of the Volksgemeinschaft (“racial community”) even as they denied rights to those outside the charmed circle."

Parkingt111 · 29/04/2024 14:38

@biscuitnut you might want to look up the difference between an arranged marriage and a forced one
They are two very different things

biscuitnut · 29/04/2024 14:38

LiterallyOnFire · 29/04/2024 14:25

@biscuitnut can you offer any explanation for or support of your assertion that "Islam is a far right religion"? I can't tell if your being inflammatory on purpose or actually believe that?

It is an authoritarian religion that is not known for being particularly progressive… Of course it’s right wing. Did you see the reaction of Muslims when primary school children were taught about sex and gender? Virtually all theocratic religion have more in common with the right wing than the progressive left. Seen any pride marches in Muslim areas lately?

StaunchMomma · 29/04/2024 14:41

IClaudine · 29/04/2024 14:26

Or maybe Susan Hall's campaign HQ?

Susan Hall's campaign HQ is spreading misinformation about the teachings of Islam?

Interesting!

But not even slightly shocking considering how she's been stoking the fires of hatred against Sadiq Khan for months.

Awful woman.

Bromptotoo · 29/04/2024 14:41

Fox News.

Need I say more?

Goldenbear · 29/04/2024 14:46

WorriedMama12 · 29/04/2024 13:33

I would disagree that it isn't a large group. Over 1000 people gathering in one place to advocate for their cause. Imagine if they decide to gather in one place and....forcefully push... their cause....

Well you shouldn’t worry, it will only add to your worried state of mind.

LiterallyOnFire · 29/04/2024 14:48

It is an authoritarian religion that is not known for being particularly progressive… Of course it’s right wing. Did you see the reaction of Muslims when primary school children were taught about sex and gender? Virtually all theocratic religion have more in common with the right wing than the progressive left. Seen any pride marches in Muslim areas lately?

Oh the school gate mobs in the Midlands and Yorkshire were terribly reactionary and depressing, yes. (I'm not a fan of the current Saturday London marches, either.)

But fundamentalist wings of all religions are the same. Moderate traditions in the same religions are less authoritarian. Like Christianity. (There's a basic problem with how to interpret ancient books as codes for modern living.) Like anything.

No amount of extremist, Islamist, fascism makes the whole religion of Islam "right wing".

WorriedMama12 · 29/04/2024 14:53

Goldenbear · 29/04/2024 14:46

Well you shouldn’t worry, it will only add to your worried state of mind.

Thanks, I won't, nor was I.

ZoeCM · 29/04/2024 15:02

I think people are being harsh towards the OP. It doesn't matter that it's just over a thousand people - they're gathering to call for absolutely horrendous treatment of women and gay men. I'd find it worrying if a thousand white nationalists gathered to call for the same thing.

blimeyslimey · 29/04/2024 15:02

LiterallyOnFire · 29/04/2024 14:21

No, elements of Islam are politicised and extreme. (Same as Christianity and most other religions.)

Which is no comfort if you find yourself staring down the barrel of a fatwa, but it's still an important distinction. The fact that it won't be a delegation of your local neighbours (mainstream Muslim accountants, doctors, businesswomen etc) who come to fulfil the fatwa is significant. It's not a technicality.

It is not the entire religion that is so prescribe and proscriptive.

No, but its more predominant that people are accepting here.

Lets go back to the case of the (non-Muslim) boys who took a copy of the Koran to school and it got dropped to the floor.

The autistic boy who got the 'blame' was subject to death threats and was utterly terrified, unable to eat, terribly, terribly affect on his mental health.

His mother went to a meeting about this at the local mosque with the muslim community. A police officer was there. Did the local Imam/ muslim community leaders tell her they condemned the death threats? Did they offer her their sympathies at this difficult time? Did they reassure her they would co-operate fully with the police in any way they could to bring the people threatening her son to justice? Did they say they would be making clear statements to their community about how unacceptable the treatment of her son was?

No they didn't. She, the representative of a schoolchild victim of a crime ( threats of death and harassment) was crying and apologising and pleading with them to save her son. Like she was in a sharia court. In the UK. Clearly, in the minds of the muslim community at that meeting, they were the victims, not her son.

This was expressed clearly by the representative of the muslim community on Anti-social on radio 4 who laughed away the death threats but was clear on how awful and distressing it is for muslims when the Koran is disrespected and touches the floor. Clearly, to her, her religious values tell her that disrespecting the Koran is worse that death threats to a traumatised school child.

That programme really made me realise that the difference in values is not between Britons ( whether muslim or not) and a few extremist, but a difference in values between muslims and non-muslims which is much more widely spread than I realised.

Now I know that there are muslims who will condemn the treatment of that boy, I have read the writings of muslim women saying that the Prophet could deal with insults in his day and that muslims should be able to deal with them in this day.

But that case really showed that its really quite widespread and mainstream that muslims expect non-muslims to show the same respect for the artefacts of their religion as they do. And that is not acceptable in a liberal society. All of us have to be able to cope with our beliefs being criticised or mocked. None of us are above challenge. That's what living in pluralistic and tolerant society means. Its not always easy, but the alternative is untenable. The alternative, in this case, was an effective sharia court in the UK where one religion felt emboldened and entitled to assert their religious beliefs over and above the child victim of death threats and harassment. And that's not just unacceptable, its genuinely shocking. The Ex-muslims who have fled repressive regimes or repression in their religion I have heard speak on this case, are absolutely horrified to see the oppression they have fled, coming to Britain through this case.

And lets not forget, as I said above, the teacher who is STILL, years later, in hiding for his life, his utterly ruined, after he received death threats for talking about the Charlie hebdo murderers in a lesson on free speech. And he was hung out to dry by our cowardly Education authorities (who had sanctioned the lesson) and our cowardly politicians.

We should be worried when our leaders are too scared to stand up to would-be thugs and murderers who are trying to intimidate non-adherents into religious obedience to aspects of their faith. . We should be.

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