Fear and debate around governments disability payments proposed shake up.

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

Thought I would start a thread to keep this topic relevant as the first thread started by another poster has filled up.

I think it is important to keep this subject in people's minds and explore the whole subject.

It is exceedingly complex and there are bigger picture issues at play that get overlooked I feel.

I think people with direct experience should be able to express themselves and be part of the debate.

Solidarity with those at the thin edge of the wedge.

Is this to do with removing fit notes from the purview of GPs? And also a clamp down on people being mentally ill? Something like that? The Rishi stall setting last week? Or has there been another episode?

It is exceedingly complex and there are bigger picture issues at play that get overlooked I feel.. What is complex, and what are the issues at play? Your post is so open to interpretation it’s hard to engage with.

Yes it's exactly about that. There's a thread that has filled up that was started by another poster about being scared by the proposals. Lots of interesting opinions.

@TomeTome

If you want to play catch up:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5059224-to-be-frightened-about-the-governments-plans-for-benefits-reform?page=1

I'm concerned about the migration to UC from legacy benefits. And that has apparently been brought forward for people of income based ESA. The premiums that currently exist under ESA don't exist under Universal Credit.

I don't understand the transitional protection and how long it lasts and if it completely replaces premiums. It would mean a massive drop in many people's income, including my own.

It's very worrying.

Transitional protection lasts until your entitlement to UC matches your entitlement under legacy benefits, @PunishmentRoundupWithJoon . It means you won't get an increase in the amount of UC you get until the point at which your entitlement catches up with what you were getting under legacy benefits.

It's cold comfort, I know, but if you get limited capability for work-related activity in UC, the extra you get added to UC is a lot more than the support group component in ESA. However, it isn't as much as support group plus severe disability premium.

I'd try not to worry about the other "reforms" the government is planning. Hopefully, there'll be an election before they get it implemented and the new government may well pull the plug on it, or at least introduce measures to lessen the impact.

Entirely sympathise with those who are fearing for their life sustaining income right now.

I do think that Rishi has a point that we simply cannot afford the current system & so cuts have to be made.

However, my guess would be that cutting NHS waiting times + improving support to get people back to work will fare out better in the long run than just cutting benefits.

I also think that the job-seeking should be prioritised for back to work before the disabled (I know there is an overlap!).

I call courts regularly in my job + they are so short staffed with people to answer the phone. This is an unskilled, sedentary job that people could surely do from home with few qualifications + would be easy to make flexible hours etc. The gov should put its money where its mouth is + support people into these kinds of jobs.

I suspect the reality is more complex though x

I do think that Rishi has a point that we simply cannot afford the current system & so cuts have to be made

Yes we can afford the current system and cuts do not have to be made. Like austerity this is an ideological choice. Sunak is scapegoating the most vulnerable in society and people are falling for it.

It is so fucking depressing.

This man says it all.

https://x.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1783582275059220868

I call courts regularly in my job + they are so short staffed with people to answer the phone. This is an unskilled, sedentary job that people could surely do from home with few qualifications + would be easy to make flexible hours etc. The gov should put its money where its mouth is + support people into these kinds of jobs

I don't know where to start with this, honestly.

I don't think we can afford it, tbh.

Mental health problems in this country are out of control. We cannot afford a situation where people continue to get mentally & physically sicker. We need to invest in the NHS, social care & support, education etc to turn the tide on this.

@anonhop yep, its WAY more complex.

We (disabled people) often need jobs that are not only able to be done from home, but are super flexible in when we can do them.

In theory I am capable of making/recieving calls, in reality, I may not be able to start work at 9am every day or even some days and I wouldn't be able to tell you in advance when that would be either!

There are VERY few jobs out there that offer the flexibility people require - society thinks of 'disabled' people as on the whole, wheelchair users who are perfectly able but would find leaving the house and doing a physical job fairly hard.

The grim reality is most disabled people have chronic health conditions and are not just disabled but are also actively ill, unwell, poorly, and this fluctuates day by day.

I am very fortunate that I have a very flexible job that starts at 2pm, that I can do part time and I can also call in sick with next to no notice or even mid shift, though obviously I try not to do that often and will only do it if I am practically dying at my desk. I have even got colleagues who would cover part of my shift and NOT claim the payment for those hours (I do not let them do this, but they would!)

Jobs like mine - a/ require a high degree of specialist knowledge and prior qualification and b/are as rare as rocking horse shit.

Even where such jobs exist, they don't work if EVERYONE needs the same accomodation. I 'get away' with my requirements because the rest of the team does not have such needs and can step in. So whilst in theory where I work there may be 9 jobs, only 1 of those is actually practical to have filled by someone like me! It is also the case that I was headhunted for the role, and have been there since start-up, so the role has been to a degree, tailor made for me.

Very very few people with the sorts of health conditions I have, would EVER find a role like this that already exists, and few have the freedom to take a punt on a start-up venture either.

I do agree that we should be looking for more ways to make work accessible, but in reality it needs a HUGE overhaul in the expectations of employers and the general work culture in the UK. It just isn't going to happen, particularly not at a time when disabled people are being wilfully painted as idle slackers and useless burdens by our government and the media!

I don't know what your point is.

The point I was making is that, if it's as easy as the government say, why aren't they filling up all the jobs they have vacant with people on benefits?

The truth is that people are too sick/ have too many other issues that need addressing first and that the jobs available aren't suitable. It's just not as simple as shoving people into jobs that are there.

I agree entirely. I do think that investing in NHS so disabled people's health needs are met as far as possible is the first step. There are so many people being left without basic accessibility items, for example, for ages. Eg waiting a year to receive a wheelchair/ other support items. Improving this would go a (small) way to helping the situation.

Beyond that, you're completely right and of course there are always people who are unable to work entirely/ unless in very specific roles like you have!

I just think if the government can't provide these kinds of roles in their own departments, how can they expect other employers to?

I completely misread your post, I am really sorry!

@WiddlinDiddlin

Thank you for sharing your situation so eloquently. This is precisely why discussions is needed because so many people think it's so easy to get people with challenges into work - sustainable yet flexible work.

The last thread ended up with very polarised views and the idea that it's easy for people to get benefits in order to live the life if Riley by faking their conditions whether physical or mental was prevalent.

Very few people want to be state dependent. Those that are, for whatever reason and for however long don't deserve a kicking and to be scapegoats for all the country's economic ills.

It's a small part of a picture that includes geopolitics, market forces government and corporate fraud etc etc and deserves thorough investigation IMHO.

There is a nasty ideological rhetoric around "resilience" etc but it overlooks the fact that if the basics are missing in terms of employment, housing and sustenance, it will prove extremely difficult for people to pick themselves up and keep trucking especially if they have challenges and / or dependents. Mental health will plummet and the knock on effect is even more expensive.

All systems are overstretched and underfunded. Yet early intervention could prevent many from spiralling in every direction.

Interested in hearing any and all thoughts and experiences.

An interesting concept here is the idea of "quality" of a worker.

So if you are a business hiring people, then you want the best person for the job.

If someone is disabled, often this means that the job will require a certain amount of tweaking for them.

I was a teacher for many years and I had an accident and couldn't walk and used a wheelchair. They had to adapt the job - I got a ground floor classroom, no break duties etc.

So in general disabled people are going to be more of a hassle to employ than able bodied people. Because of all the physical and social barriers to them being able to engage with work.

At the same time, Covid is giving us a lot more people with long covid, latest news is that strokes are massively up since the pandemic.

There's a major mental health problem that's been brewing for over 10 years that many experts think is about the impact of social media on children and young adults' mental health (and that is worldwide)

So the U.K. (and everywhere else for that matter) has got more physically and mentally ill people than it used to.

So the people who are not disabled are mostly in work now. There's a tight labour market. But a lot of the vacancies are not jobs that disabled people can easily do.

Someone who has had a stroke can't do care work. They aren't going to be able to work in a pub doing 12 hour shifts waiting on. Depending on how bad their speech is they may not be able to do call centre type work.

Equally, someone who has panic attacks in crowded places (legacy of poor mental health and lockdowns) isn't going to be doing waiting on or retail or anything where they have to commute.

I don't have an answer by the way - on a personal level I became more disabled due to another illness and left teaching as I couldn't physically do it any more so I'm now medically retired. With five major diagnoses and having to use an electric wheelchair and can't walk far even the job centre thought I was a lost cause.

Maybe businesses will adapt for disabled people to work. Maybe not. Maybe the ones who have family support and relatives will be ok while the ones who don't will struggle to eat.

Personally I'd rather see business adapt but I know from personal experience it's hard for them to.

In fairness, most of us on the last thread said we were fully supportive of those who needed them getting the necessary benefits.

We were simply making the point that our spending and public debt is unsustainable given we have an ageing population (which will need increasing amounts spent on medical care) and that difficult decisions will have to be made by the next government. A view that was shared by some of the posters who receive disability benefits.

I don't quite understand why those receiving benefits wouldn't want to ensure they go to those that need them, rather than risking everyone facing a cut to their benefits because cuts will have to be made somewhere (pensions, NHS, education, defence...?).

"I don't quite understand why those receiving benefits wouldn't want to ensure they go to those that need them, rather than risking everyone facing a cut to their benefits because cuts will have to be made somewhere (pensions, NHS, education, defence...?)"

Because the current PIP process is set up to fail people

I also think that the job-seeking should be prioritised for back to work before the disabled (I know there is an overlap!).

Wtaf

I think Octavia has made a good point. Employers want the best candidate with the fewest problems. It is much easier to negotiate reasonable adjustments once you have a proven record. Many of the people I see have worked in physical fairly unskilled jobs and they are not first in the queue for tech wfh jobs. It would make far more sense to pump money into the proper diagnosis treatment and support rather than effectively fining people for being ill.

@pearlevu

Think you might've misunderstood my point (as others have, so I clearly didn't say it well - sorry!!).

My point is, if the government want to reduce number of ppl on benefits & get people back to work, surely the place to begin is to people who are fit for work + seeking work, rather than taking benefits away from ill or disabled people + hoping they magically find their way into employment.

"A view that was shared by some of the posters who receive disability benefits." - can you please be more precise with the names? I noticed this kind of view on previous thread was shared only by people who "knows" someone who receives disability benefits, not who actually receive it.
People who actually receive disability benefits knows very well how hard it is to get through it and how unfair the system already is! There's no need to make it harder than it is already. DWP is free to go after people who try to make fake claims, but not at the expense of disabled people.
Also, there's plenty of people who died of suicide after DWP stripped of their benefits. Either by accident, either because DWP thought they know better than GP and NHS if a person is faking mental health issues or not.
RIP to all people who committed suicide because of DWP mistakes.

Interesting opinions, and many down right offensive ones too.

I hope this thread does not go the same way.

We have to make work work for people who need flexibility due to health needs. I have a superb colleague who has an autoimmune condition that flares up and down and who needs to be able to leave or be off quite often. The other four of us can absorb this and we are happy to, Management less so. There are times in everyone's working life when we need more time off and more flexibility, the most important thing is to get people back in to work or hang on to them to capitalise on what they can do rather than expect everyone to manage the same hours with 2 or fewer periods of sickness per year.