Fear and debate around governments disability payments proposed shake up.

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

Thought I would start a thread to keep this topic relevant as the first thread started by another poster has filled up.

I think it is important to keep this subject in people's minds and explore the whole subject.

It is exceedingly complex and there are bigger picture issues at play that get overlooked I feel.

I think people with direct experience should be able to express themselves and be part of the debate.

Solidarity with those at the thin edge of the wedge.

This policy is not as popular with the older cohort as they think it is. My 88 year old home owning dad is disgusted with it

Yeah Including one that i must be hiding something because i suggested that the fear of taxes going up to tackle NHS waiting lists is partly behind the shitty attitudes towards people on disability benefits.

Hiding something? WTF!!!

Some people think Shameless was a documentary!!

I think working closely with GPs and NHS would actually benefit DWP in the long term. If they would have actually exchanged information on each person there's no way something like this would have ever happened. I doubt any GP will ever issue a sick note to a patient who he never saw in person. This kind of fraud would have been impossible to do, if DWP would have checked upfront with GP if the sick note is valid or fake.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fraudsters-behind-539-million-benefits-scam-brought-to-justice-in-countrys-largest-benefit-fraud-case

I was told I was faking MH issues (and that I somehow "self cured"), and that I should open my own coffee van.

@XenoBitch i was going to reply but ive been away and only got back this afternoon. Was absolutely ridiculous.

I think it's so unfair, that because of five people who stole 53.9£ in benefit fraud (I assume there's plenty of more people who carry on stealing money in benefit frauds like those five people) all other really vulnerable people need to be put under more stressful process in order to receive the help they need. Why it is fair?

If it can be solved in another way. For example, first DWP needs to actually check with NHS that all the evidence from the NHS is real and not fake. After checking each bank account is real, each new identity is real, each new address is real, each new tenancy agreement is real etc. Surely it can be done somehow.

There's no need from the start to say that the main problem is people who fake their mental health or physical health issues to receive benefits.

To be honest I'm baffled and angry when I think that five people managed to steal 53.9£. At the same time, people who really struggle with health issues are shamed for having real health issues and not being able to work.

"A view that was shared by some of the posters who receive disability benefits." - can you please be more precise with the names? I noticed this kind of view on previous thread was shared only by people who "knows" someone who receives disability benefits, not who actually receive it.

Apologies but I can't be arsed to go through 1,000 posts (which I read all of) to pull out posters' names to prove my point. Some people that received disability benefits said they didn't have an issue with checking whether people were eligible and some were stronger still about misuse.

I am disabled (the last thread made be realise that I could quite possibly claim PIP if I wanted to) so this really isn't about bashing people who have similar issues. But the point of AIBU is to have a debate so it's not unreasonable to hold the view that preserving disability benefits for those that need it by identifying those who don't could be a net positive.

Unless people genuinely believe they can solve the burgeoning public debt and ageing population without reviewing our current public expenditure. Because, as a disabled person, the NHS isn't fit for purpose either in my opinion (and those of my friends who are consultants). Defence spending is also an issue given current geopolitical tension and teachers speak of insufficient budgets.

The money has to come from somewhere beyond the rhetoric about the rich paying more (which inevitably means the middle class who feel pretty squeezed already given the 40 year high in inflation and ending of cheap lending).

Well i predicted this when i said it wouldnt be the rich they would be coming for to pay for their fucking lockdowns

I'm sorry to hear it. Being told that you are faking MH issues is terrible! I'm glad you managed to get through it, you are still with us and didn't give up. 💐
People have no idea what kind of terrible consequences these words can have for any person who struggles with their MH issues.

Ok, so no real names.

But excuse me, if NHS isn't fit to tell the DWP which person is ill and which one is fit for work, then who is fit for this purpose? Do we need to ask the bus drivers to tell the DWP? Or the lawyers? Or anyone else who has no degree in health care?

I suspect the proposals aren't about any genuine desire to help people into work, and I'm not even sure there's enough vacancies. I might be remembering wrong but I'm sure I've seen statistics quoted somewhere showing there's fewer total job vacancies than there are jobseekers (and I think that was only looking at people on jobseeker benefits and not including those on sickness benefits).

It seems to be more about kicking people when they're down and demonising already vulnerable people. I imagine suicides and attempted suicides will increase (which will probably cost the NHS qland social services more than any savings made by cutting sickness benefits). It's punishing ill people for being ill.

If it was about helping people into work, where's the emphasis on companies? Will they be required to prioritise disabled job seekers? No longer have maximum sickness leave days? Will the government bring in something like the old Disabled Employee Quotas for larger companies?
Many businesses simply aren't willing to employ sick and disabled people (even when they're able to work).

It's hard enough for many SAHP to find work after taking time out to care for their DC. Look at the many threads in the Work section of MN. Loads of people making multiple job applications (including jobs they're 'over-qualified' for, so it's not about being 'picky') but still struggling to find work. Employers don't like to take people on after time out of the job market.

And will there be investment to cut the growing NHS waiting lists and improve the dire state of social care provision?

Also, going after sickness benefits (so causing extra financial worry and further deprivation) will hinder ability and progress towards being well enough to work. People's mental health will worsen as will their physical health.

I think most of the shitty attitudes come from a lack of understanding about how the benefits system works and a genuine misunderstanding about what some disabilities are.

The NHS ( as an institution) can't tell the DWP who is fit for work and who is not for a number of reasons:

1 care of ill people is fragmented. I have five diagnoses. I moved recently and my GP has my records but has never met me. Each of my diagnoses was given to me by a different hospital consultant. There is no one person who knows what I can do and what I can't do because I have more than one condition and they interact.

2 there are a lot of conditions where there is no ongoing care. So for example I have peripheral neuropathy which is a problem with the nerves in my feet. There is no treatment for this. So I saw a neurologist over 15 years ago who diagnosed it but that's the only documentation I have. There is no treatment possible so I'm not seen by doctors for it.

3 in general the nhs will (possibly with a few years wait) diagnose you and write you a letter telling you what the diagnosis is. If you're lucky you might get some treatment. But having a diagnosis of, for example, multiple sclerosis doesn't give much information about whether you are actually well enough to work or not. Diseases vary in their impact on people, some drugs work better in some people than others, etc etc.

The nhs is set up to assess how ill you are, ideally diagnose you, and treat if possible. This isn't consistent with assessing whether you are well enough to work.

Also, the increase in the number of people claiming sickness benefits is an inevitable consequence of the increased state pension age. Of course lots of people are perfectly able to work well into their 60s, many others aren't. Life expectancy might have increased (although I think that's no longer the case, and might even be starting to fall?) but that doesn't mean people are in good health.

But excuse me, if NHS isn't fit to tell the DWP which person is ill and which one is fit for work, then who is fit for this purpose? Do we need to ask the bus drivers to tell the DWP? Or the lawyers? Or anyone else who has no degree in health care?

I was referring to the NHS providing adequate treatment for my medical conditions, nothing more.

AIBU is a place to have a respectful debate (albeit it's increasingly rare) and you're perfectly entitled to hold a different view to mine. Many people see things from their lived experience and that's perfectly valid.

I'm talking about the macroeconomic situation which is also valid as we have a crippling public debt and the mini budget/bond market meltdown showed the precariousness of our public finances. I'm sure others are extremely concerned about the constant pushback in the state pension age and whether the triple lock will be preserved. Disability benefits can't be entirely separated from the bigger picture.

It seems to be more about kicking people when they're down and demonising already vulnerable people. I imagine suicides and attempted suicides will increase (which will probably cost the NHS qland social services more than any savings made by cutting sickness benefits). It's punishing ill people for being ill

a. And yet not so long ago they were using this same cohort as a tool to emotionally blackmail and bully others into following Covid rules and restrictions.

b. ok to starve them to death..............just as long as they dont die of Covid

A friend with an autoimmune illness that flares was given a disciplinary for absence. Absolutely no flexibility given for her health condition. She was eventually managed out.

That has happened to me, but with mental health... in the NHS too.

My DP is in the process of fighting to keep his job. He keeps getting managed out too, due to ASD.

I'm really sorry about your friend @KatieB55

This is one of the issues I was thinking about in my previous post. Employers don't want to employ sick and disabled people. If the government genuinely wants to help more disabled and sick people into work, making them poorer (and therefore sicker, so less able to work) isn't the way. Instead there's a need to reassess employer attitudes (and invest in the NHS and social care).

But definitely also the increased state pension age is the elephant in the room. It's no coincidence the increase in people claiming working age sickness benefits has happened when the state pension age was raised.

I totally agree with you.

I didn't mean that NHS needs to start applications for their patients and tell the DWP who needs to be for long term out of work. But, NHS evidence should be the main reasons for DWP to make their decisions about how ill a person is. How else can it be done?

Even if it's like you, diagnosis from five different hospital consultants. It should be more valid evidence for DWP to make a decision about your work capability based on your diagnosis instead of only your own words.

P.S. I'm sure the moment you'll ask your GP for something what he isn't sure you need, drugs, referral, long term sick note, etc. your GP will ask you kindly to come in for a consultation and meet you in person.

Presumably your 88 year old dad isn't paying for it all though. He might feel differently if a wealth tax on his home was introduced in order to pay the bill.

The trouble with these threads is that they tend to be echo chambers for people who directly benefit from the status quo, and get incensed at any suggestion of change or reform. I'm more interested in hearing what poor Joe Taxpayer thinks. My feeling is that most don't want to be supporting ever increasing numbers of people on benefits and would support a shake up.

Its a three bedroom semi. But a wealth tax would affect how much care my elderly parents would be able to pay for and i aint doin the hands on personal care because of the attitudes of people like yourself towards carers. i live in social housing one bedroom flat.

Yep, some of the higher tax payers I know are altering their behaviour due to paying too much tax and no services.

I don't think a wealth tax will happen whilst many countries in Europe offer golden passports to entice wealthy people with their money.

Some not even needing much (500,000 euro ). We need these people more that the extremely wealthy.

I have multiple physical and one significant mental health problem. My physical issues may well end up killing me well before my ‘time’ despite this I have always worked- even though its incredible hard at times.
In the course of my work I meet people literally every day who quite honestly have opted out. They have given up and live years or decades on benefits. Ill be honest it does depress me. Many people could work to some degree and in some capacity so what is wrong with expecting that they do?