Fear and debate around governments disability payments proposed shake up.

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

Thought I would start a thread to keep this topic relevant as the first thread started by another poster has filled up.

I think it is important to keep this subject in people's minds and explore the whole subject.

It is exceedingly complex and there are bigger picture issues at play that get overlooked I feel.

I think people with direct experience should be able to express themselves and be part of the debate.

Solidarity with those at the thin edge of the wedge.

Yes, NHS should be providing you adequate treatment for your medical condition. At the same time DWP should ask NHS about your medical condition and based on it to decide if you are fit for work or not. DWP can't on their own, without NHS evidence decide if your medical condition is severe, mild or non existent.

The macroeconomic situation of the country doesn't depend on the tiny % of the population who happened to have physical or mental health issues and can't work at the moment. Also, let's remember that most of those people go back to work after a while, some die, not all of them from birth till death never worked a day in their life. That's how it always was and how will always be, there's always a tiny % of the population who can't work now. I don't for sure how much is the % of the population who is out of work at the moment, but I'm sure it's not more than 10%. There's no need to blame 10% of vulnerable people for the whole country macroeconomic situation.

There's no need to have no empathy towards people with health issues and shame them for their own body and inability to work for a while. Trust me, none of them are happy about their own health issues. There's no joy in experiencing any kind of physical pain or emotional pain.

P.S.
Based on data from commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9366/ and www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/articles/risingillhealthandeconomicinactivitybecauseoflongtermsicknessuk/2019to2023

2,5 million people are on long term sick now.
At the same time, 32.98 million people are employed.
That means (we don't count children and elderly) UK has around 35.48 million people who should be working.
2.5 million people who are on long term sick at the moment because of health issues equals 7.04%.

How can you blame 7.04% of the population who happens to have serious physical health issues or mental health issues for the country macroeconomic situation?

I'm more interested in hearing what poor Joe Taxpayer thinks. My feeling is that most don't want to be supporting ever increasing numbers of people on benefits and would support a shake up.

Joe Taxpayer includes people on benefits. Income tax isn't the only tax, but also many people in need of sickness benefits did work, often for decades, before they became unable to. Others, like a neighbour's severely disabled adult DC, provide employment to other people (so indirectly contributing to income tax and keeping the unemployment benefits numbers down).

Also worth remembering that almost half of people on benefits are working. Wages haven't kept up with the cost of living.

What's your suggestion? If you want people who're currently unable to work but have potential to be able to, making them more ill by going after their meagre benefits isn't the way.

However, investing in the NHS and social care (which would also prevent many people becoming too ill to work in the first place) and looking at employers could help. So why isn't that the focus instead of plans which will very likely push many people to suicide (something that already happens under the current sickness benefit system).

Maximum days sick leave are a feature in many companies. Going over can trigger start the process of being sacked on incapacity grounds, and for people not already in work, there's the massive reluctance by employers to employ someone with a chronic illness or disability, much less make any adjustments needed.

With the state pension age increase it's also unsurprising there's more people on sickness benefits. Increased life expectancy (which is no longer happening as far as I understand) doesn't equal good health

Also are there enough job vacancies? I mentioned this in a previous post but I'm pretty sure I saw statistics showing there's fewer job vacancies than there are job seekers.

@Icannotbudget

Totally agree that if somebody can work, they should work. I'm sure there are some people who have simply given up but tbh I don't entirely blame them. The system is exhausting for disabled, poor people.

I do believe that improving the nation's health by investing in NHS, education & social care will lead to more people off sickness benefits.

If this government were really interested in supporting people with disabilities this wouldn't be happening

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/21/help-disabled-people-england-wales-jobs-axed-benefits-crackdown

The proposed measures are punitive and designed to appeal to their target voters.

I agree with you. It's unbelievable:
"In its consultation document, the government said it would create new “work and health advisors” who would be “non-clinical professionals” to conduct “robust and in-depth work and health conversations with patients”."

I can't imagine how someone who's non-clinical professional can tell if a person is sick or not and issue a sick note. Oh yes, they won't issue sick notes, because that's how the government wants. Sick people won't be a problem anymore. Everyone magically will become fit for work, no matter what.

This government has so much empathy towards people and is so democratic: let's send people to Rwanda, let's cut benefits and send sick people back to work ASAP, let's ban smoking. I wonder what else happened and we don't know yet....

Scotland has replaced PIP with adult disability payment (ADP) and you can tick a box giving them access to your medical records when you apply. My DD got an award purely through them looking at her medical notes and didn't have to have a medical.

The problem with NHS notes is it doesn't specify how your illness or disability addects you on a day to day basis. One person with anxiety might be crippled with it and another might be able to live a relatively normal life.

Interestingly the right wing Labour MP responsible for bringing in ATOS and Capita back in 2008 is the current shadow secretary for work and pensions.

Those hoping Labour are going to go easy on welfare given the state of the UK economy are in for a rude shock.

How can you blame 7.04% of the population who happens to have serious physical health issues or mental health issues for the country macroeconomic situation?

Er I'm not in any way, shape or form. My point is simply that the public finances are so parlous that governments will be reviewing ALL areas of expenditure, including benefits. And I have been very clear that I support people getting disability benefits when they need them.

As much as people dismiss it, there is a bigger picture here and there are people in other categories that feel similarly scared of changes to public spending. Pensioners worrying about the triple lock given recent inflation, cancer patients worrying about whether their trust will approve a life saving drug, couples hoping for NHS fertility treatment, schools struggling with budgets, creaking military infrastructure given the raised threat from Russia.

All deserving for different reasons but I'm not sure people necessarily foresee the consequences of large public debt and a shrinking working age population. The old age dependency ratio is forecast to rise from 280 in 2020 to 341 by 2045, with a 28% increase in people of pensionable age. The current situation isn't going to get better, unfortunately.

And just to add, this was posted in AIBU, not on the health board, presumably to seek a range of views?

Thank you for all the posts so far.

I think it's really important to hear from everyone with direct experience of the systems in question as those who have never had the misfortune to be in them often find it difficult to grasp what we're all trying to convey.

I learned long ago that what I believed about various institutions was vastly different to the reality.

Without wishing to sound tin foil hat, it is known that the state monitors all forms if media including social and my hope is that if there is enough rumbling across all platforms, these issues might be looked at in a more nuanced way.

There is a crossover I think with another thread running at the moment about people being sad about the decline of their towns. The issues being brought up have resonance with the issues around benefits etc although not specifically the things being discussed here. This is why I wanted to stress the overall complexity of the state of our country for what is painted sometimes as the "underclass" (I'm in it, so please don't take offence, I'm using the term to illustrate the way people are categorised and dehumanised).

Anyway, please keep the debate going.

Solidarity and love to all struggling xxx

Whilst this is true my GP has access to my test results and can make judgement from that

@WiseKhakiGoose

But this isn't about people who have worked for decades and are near retirement age. The main concern for the government is the increasing numbers of young people who are claiming benefits.

It's all very well to say give more money to nhs etc, but the country can't afford it. The NHS was never designed to offer such a huge range services, and if anything, it needs to be scaled right back in order to survive. Net contributors simply can't keep picking up the bill for everything, especially when the basics like dental care are missing.

7.04% is a massive percentage of the population and I'm not 'blaming' anyone. There is always this rhetoric that if you don't want to keep footing the welfare bill, then you hate disabled people. It's nonsense. I don't want to pay for people in poverty in Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean that I hate or blame or want to punish them. It simply means that there isn't enough money to go around and the people paying want their own needs met first.

Likewise, it is of course tragic if someone commits suicide, but I think it's unfair to imply that this is the fault of the taxpayer or the government.

Where has anyone said they hoped Labour "go easy on welfare"?

@Alwayswrongmoment the increase is amongst younger workers. Which is why it's really worrying.

The things that really strikes me about all this is - we've been here before. When the Tories first got into power they made a huge song and dance about reforming the benefits system, including getting people off disability benefits. So are they admitting their previous policy was a failure? If the system is so terrible, why did they create it? (Plus the fact that this proves disabled people don't miraculously stop being disabled when the approach gets more punitive.) Incidentally, the changes they made back then caused long-term claims to skyrocket, whereas previously disabled people had moved into and out of work according to what they could manage. The Tories did that.

It also makes no sense to bang on about GPs signing people off work. Under the current system GPs can only do this for about three months (any longer than this is caused by backlogs in the system, not actual policy). This makes sense for all the short-term illnesses and injuries, after which people get back to work. For longer term issues, claimants face a DWP assessment at the three month mark. So GPs are NOT signing people off for months on end.

I'm sort of in both camps here (on this thread, not with the Tories!) in that I think everyone should work if they reasonably can, but also was on benefits for disability for over a decade (the last time this crap was happening!) so very much know there are circumstances where people need support.

But when I was off work long term, and crucially - getting back to work, I did not get one jot of help from the system (bar benefits). It was the benefits that enabled me to pay for private therapy (NHS mental health was actively damaging. And not one professional twigged I was autistic. That would hae saved years and £'s!). Benefits also enabled me to rent my own flat and have a safe place in which to heal. Also, because I lived frugally and also it wasn't easy to pay for care for my difficulties, I saved loads and after a few years paid for an Open Uni module per year and got myself a degree. Then went via the "permitted work" route whilst retaining benefits until I felt able to increase my hours and with great delight signed off ESA - but benefitted from (small) Universal Credit top-ups as I couldn't manage full time work.

I needed the benefits, or I couldn't have done any of that. But there was only money - that I had to fight for with a constant merry-go-round of reassessments and appeals that set me back each time (more ££ for the taxpayer). There was no practical support, no NHS therapy/treatment, no support finding suitable work or help with CV/job applications/advice on returning to the workplace after huge absence. For most disabled people there is not even money as any they get is already spoken for - for care, equipment etc.

I would dearly love to help redesign a system and support that actually helps disabled people work where they can, in a way that is helpful to their life not punitive and fear-driven. But the Tories do not want to do that.

Apologies for long post but I'm incencsed by the nonsense of all this, and the cruel, cruel punching down.

(As an aside - the demands of my job increased to ludicrous levels and I eventually broke down and got signed off sick, then left. Now jobhunting, and it was a DWP advisor who suggested new-style ESA would be better for me than new-style JSA as I could find suitable work at my own pace without the demands from the jobcentre! The people on the ground see the reality.)

A quick and simplistic post - if people could access the medical care they need quickly, particularly mental health treatment, then there'd be more able to stay in work or rejoin the work force. When you have to wait over 2 years or more for 6 sessions of CBT, that just doesn't cut it.

Very good point!

Likewise, it is of course tragic if someone commits suicide, but I think it's unfair to imply that this is the fault of the taxpayer or the government.

The taxpayer includes people on benefits. Also it is often the fault of government policy. Reports have explicitly linked austerity including the cruel disability benefits system to suicides, which is hardly surprising since the awful fear of being left without money to live on would obviously push many people to suicide. What would you personally rather do? Starve to death or die on the streets? Or try to get it over with by suicide?

Btw many suicide attempts are unsuccessful. So if you're worried about state finances, failed suicide attempts cost the state a lot of money particularly the NHS and to social care (because people can be left more disabled after).

The increase is amongst younger workers. Which is why it's really worrying.

No coincidence this is happening at the same time as the state pension age increase. If more people are retiring at an older age, there's fewer job vacancies for younger replacements, and unemployment particularly longterm affects self worth and mental health (and the poverty affects physical health).

There is a crossover I think with another thread running at the moment about people being sad about the decline of their towns.

I agree. Failure to invest in communities and public services leaves people with no hope, aspiration or opportunity. So people sink into poverty and hopelessness, which affects their health. It's false economy to not invest in people and places. Including a good benefits system. A previous poster explains how benefits when she was ill helped her recover enough to eventually return to work. Without financial (and other) support, people will become more ill due to the poverty and despair and will have no chance of being well enough to return to work.

I'm not talking exclusively about people who are near retirement age and can't work. I'm talking about all people who can't work because of physical health issues or mental health issues between 18-70 years old.

Things happen in life, especially with health issues. You never know how you'll feel tomorrow, because you can't control it. We are all humans, we all get sick and can't work sometimes. Unfortunately, there are diseases who last for months or years, not days or weeks.

Mental health issues or physical health issues - both can leave you out of work for a long time. People should have empathy towards people with health issues, not bully them for what is not their fault.

I disagree 7.04% out of work because of health issues is not a big number. It's life, you can't expect 100% of the population to be healthy.

It's like banging your head on a brick wall with this type of comment. Time and time again they try to divide us into tax payers versus benefits claimants.

They aren't mutually exclusive and never have been. Most claimants work and are or have been tax payers.

Life changes in a instant. You could be a high rate tax payer for decades then shit happens. People get ill. People die. It's so ignorant that people can't grasp this.

To add, sometimes people don't just want a sick note note and time off of work to recover. They will also want some form of treatment too. These non-clinical professionals are not going to be prescribing anything. So people would have to see their GP anyway.

Also are there enough job vacancies? I mentioned this in a previous post but I'm pretty sure I saw statistics showing there's fewer job vacancies than there are job seekers

916,000 job vacancies, and 1.44 million unemployed. That is people who are job seeking, and does not include people who are already employed and just wanting another/different job. Those job vacancies are also going to include zero hour jobs, and part time jobs where you would need to do several to live anyway.

I can't imagine how someone who's non-clinical professional can tell if a person is sick or not and issue a sick note. Oh yes, they won't issue sick notes, because that's how the government wants. Sick people won't be a problem anymore. Everyone magically will become fit for work, no matter what.

Spot on.

If the govt wants to increase the number of people who are well enough to work, they could try reducing the number on waiting lists (currently 6m) and improve access to mental health support.

And given the diabolical state of CAMHS, I expect the number of adults with MH issues will continue to rise because it seems near impossible to get meaningful help for children and young people struggling with their mental health.

Came on to say exactly this. It may not be popular but anyone who pays tax has a right to say how they feel.

Very good point.

That means two journeys instead of one while a person is already struggling with health issues.

Came on to say exactly this. It may not be popular but anyone who pays tax has a right to say how they feel.

I agree everyone has a right to say how they feel. Also, everyone (including people on benefits) pays tax.