Fear and debate around governments disability payments proposed shake up.

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

Thought I would start a thread to keep this topic relevant as the first thread started by another poster has filled up.

I think it is important to keep this subject in people's minds and explore the whole subject.

It is exceedingly complex and there are bigger picture issues at play that get overlooked I feel.

I think people with direct experience should be able to express themselves and be part of the debate.

Solidarity with those at the thin edge of the wedge.

Most people with health issues who are out of work paid tax at some point in their life or will pay tax at some point in the future. Nobody knows what is going to happen to the poor Joe taxpayer tomorrow.

He may get in a car crash, left paralysed and unable to work (it's actually a life story I saw in real life, not invented); or may find out he has cancer and again unable to work; or be sexually assaulted, or physically assaulted, or someone he dearly loved could unexpectedly die and he'll be left with mental health issues for life etc.

Only because poor Joe taxpayer is on top now, able to work and enjoy the life, it doesn't mean nothing wrong will ever happen to his health in the future. Should we all say to poor Joe after his unexpected health issues, we don't care if you no longer can work? You're not a human anymore if you can't work? What's the point of even helping you to get better? Let's leave you starve to death?

I am "on benefits". I also pay tax, like many benefit recipients. So does that mean I have the right to say that this government is disgusting and is using sick, disabled and vulnerable people to deflect from the absolute almightly fuck up it has made of things?

Sadly, some of the less intelligent fall for the deflection tactics.

Following

Yes you do. Not sure where I said you couldn’t. I said anyone who pays tax, not just those on benefits.

Although if you are solely on benefits I’m not sure why you think you are paying tax. Perhaps you mean you receive less money as it is taxed.

I think it's worth pointing out that tax isn't just income tax from paid wages. All goods and services are taxed many times over so everyone pays tax with every purchase.

The debate between people who never experienced mental health issues or physical health issues versus people who experienced it and try to explain that being out of work because of health issues is real is similar with debate between an abusive man and his wife.

It's the same as a pregnant wife who's trying to explain to her abusive husband that she can't cook dinner for him tonight because she doesn't feel well. The husband will argue back, that he has a friend, who's wife is pregnant too and she manages to cook dinner every night. It means his wife is actually lying, is feeling well enough to cook dinner and pregnancy is not an excuse for not cooking dinner. She's not at work, doesn't have other kids to look after, means she can cook dinner for him because he was all day at work. He won't understand or believe her, no matter what his wife will tell him.

That's why we have medical professionals in the NHS who can explain it all to us. Not some abusive husband who will tell his wife how she should feel during her pregnancy.

Only because one woman feels wonderful and full of energy during her pregnancy, it doesn't mean that rest of the pregnant women will feel the same. And a man who actually never experienced pregnancy can't tell a woman how she should feel during her pregnancy. It's wrong, only someone who experienced it or is a professional in the field can actually tell anything and other people should listen to them.

People who never experienced health issues should be happy and grateful that it wasn't their experience. Not full of anger and resentful towards 7.04% of the population on benefits because they are unable to work due to health issues. It's actually bullying vulnerable people. The country definitely has bigger problems than 7.04% of the population who are unable to work for a while because of health issues.

A significant issue is that government departments and taxpayer funded services are built on outdated infrastructure and frankly, not very efficient.

I doubt that the DWP has the time to properly evaluate every claim that comes their way. They have targets to hit and it can be difficult to even get through to the GPs, courts etc. to validate things. I know someone who works for them and finds the job soul-draining, stressful and very much "thrown in the deep end".

So the DWP has to process claims in a certain timeframe, but the underfunded NHS doesn't have enough staff to liaise and verify claims, and then people don't get PIP who need it or vice versa.

It all seems to boil down to everything running on a shoestring budget and thinking higher targets will improve efficiency rather than leading to corner cutting and huge workforce stress.

That and PPs' points about long covid and increasing mental and physical health issues adding to the pool of claimants.

Many are saying because it is unlikely that the Conservatives will win the next election that the benefit reforms Rishi is proposing won’t happen. In fact Labour will most likely have a similar approach to cutting the welfare bill.

Perhaps you mean you receive less money as it is taxed

As does everyone who pays tax via PAYE. I am not sure what your point is?

I totally agree with this, and the work capability assessment really doesn't take into account nuances like you describe. Being able to work, and being able to obtain hold down a job in the current market are two completely different things.

I even had a GP once refuse me a fit note because I was doing 1.5 hours a week voluntary work 100m away from my house! As if that even comes close to requiring the same physical and mental energy/capability as working a full time job 5 days a week, and potentially commuting too. Fortunately I have now found a job that does work for me, but it's also quite specialised.

Maybe the answer is a more compassionate work capability assessment that genuinely tries to identify what kind of a job a person could do, and for the government to invest in incentives for companies to provide those kinds of jobs.

If the government was remotely interested in the welfare of disabled people, and saving the country money, then they’d be focussing on getting claims for benefits done correctly first time. Rather than wasting the obscene amount of money on appeals that is wasted atm when they drag sick and disabled people through an unnecessary process.

My daughter’s last appeal we didn’t even get in the door of the room, the panel awarded her high rate for both care and mobility after looking through the papers and the evidence
and called us as we were leaving on the morning.
The assessment done by a physio bore no relation to the reports provided by two specialists (one consultant and one professor) an OT, a specialist Nurse and a physio who has worked with her monthly and yet the DWP decision maker used it solely to make their decision. As did the one doing the mandatory reconsideration.

The centre we were going to has 15 rooms for appeals. Each with a lawyer and doctor panel, some also have a welfare rights specialist. They are so busy it took 10 months for her appeal. The cost of that is phenomenal, and when you look at the number of people who win their appeal - many who don’t add any extra evidence so it’s not that suddenly something appears - it’s an absolute disgraceful waste of money.

Also if they were remotely interested in disabled people having more work opportunities they wouldn’t be removing WFH in an arbitrary way in the civil service. And they’d be encouraging big companies not to remove it either, given the opportunities it gives.

Very very few people with the sorts of health conditions I have, would EVER find a role like this that already exists, and few have the freedom to take a punt on a start-up venture either.

Someone in the job centre told my DD that “all she needs” was an employer who was willing to have flexible start and end times, flexible hours (in terms of some days working 5, some days working 2, some none), didn’t need notice for days off or for medical appointments, could be done from home on days where necessary, but with a ‘reasonable’ wage…

She said to my DD “I have no idea where they’d expect you or I to find you a job like that”

I don't know how they can ever say that living on benefits is a lifestyle choice. I'm disabled with ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia, Peripheral Neuropathy, Arthritis, Anxiety & Depression, Underactive Thyroid, B12 Deficiency & Autism. I worked from being 18 to when I got finished due to how much time I was off sick age 45 by HMRC. I'm terrified every time the post drops through the letterbox in case it's another form to fill in or a letter from DWP, twice I've had my DLA or PIP award either reduced or taken off me altogether, both times I applied to appeal, the first time I actually got to tribunal & won, the second time I applied to appeal & during the month the DWP have to look at the claim again I got a phone call to say they were giving my my enhanced award back. Both times I had my mobility car taken off me, the lady who rang me said that they had looked at all the doctors letters I had sent in, I asked why they hadn't read them when they processed the claim originally, she said that they only look at the form & will only look at reports & letters when the claim goes to appeal. Is this in any way why they get so many claims wrong & they then have to go to appeal? I got no apology. The Government ought to try to live on benefits for a year, walk in the shoes of those who have. Hopefully this will be the last roll of the dice for this cruel sick party before they get booted out of office.

Hopefully this will be the last roll of the dice for this cruel sick party before they get booted out of office

I agree, but I am worried about Labour too. Reeves and Kendall both have disturbing views. Kendall's speech a few weeks ago was awful.

People solely on benefits pay tax via PAYE? Not sure that’s correct. Or maybe you missed what I wrote?

That is not what I said. Maybe you missed what I wrote?

You said

Although if you are solely on benefits I’m not sure why you think you are paying tax. Perhaps you mean you receive less money as it is taxed

I pointed out that everyone who is on PAYE receives less money as it is taxed. So I was not sure of your point.

I did not say people solely on benefits are on PAYE. But some might be, I don't know. The tax and benefits system is complex. Some benefits are taxable such as contribution based ESA and JSA, Carer's Allowance, the State Pension.

Even if people solely on benefits don't pay income tax, they pay other taxes. VAT, tax on fuel bills. They also pay a contribution to council tax, I think.

Yes, income tax isn't the only tax. Everyone pays tax even if not income tax. Also many people on sickness benefits previously worked, often for decades, before becoming ill (like the previous poster who worked from 18 to 45), so have paid income tax.

Regarding benefits in general, and not just looking at sickness benefits, almost half of people claiming benefits are working and so are paying income tax. They receive benefits as well as working because wages haven't kept up with the cost of living.

With council tax, the newer system is rather unfair because it varies by council. It used to be that everyone on income based benefits got full council tax benefit but now it depends where the person lives as it varies by council. Some give full exemption for people on income based benefits but others only give a discount. Seems unfair as people don't always get to choose where they live particularly as it's often extra hard to move when disabled or sick.

Really interesting discussion on Talk TV about the infected blood scandal

Many affected have been left unable to work

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/28/welcome-to-the-disability-benefits-capital-of-britain/

Hmm.

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/29/people-with-depression-or-anxiety-could-lose-sickness-benefits-pip?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQGsAEggAID#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17143941286086&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2F2024%2Fapr%2F29%2Fpeople-with-depression-or-anxiety-could-lose-sickness-benefits-pip

And so it rumbles on.

Political point scoring. Pfft.

Yeah, it had disappeared from the front pages quite quickly.

The government really wants people talking about this.

What actually is the point of this? That's what I'm wondering. The Tories are unlikely to win another GE (as far as I can tell, anyway) and they won't be able to implement these changes before they get voted out. That makes me think they are either:

1. Desperate to not get voted out, and coming out with whatever old nonsense they think will get people to vote for them. I'm expecting a load of buzzwords to be trotted out over the next few months - maybe something about 'woke' culture, maybe something about illegal immigrants - as they come up with ideas that they think will get people to vote. Whether they will go ahead with these policies if they stay in power - who knows.
2. They know they're not staying in power and they think this PIP stuff will make Labour's life harder down the line. I'm not really sure how or why.

Am I overlooking something?

They know they're not staying in power and they think this PIP stuff will make Labour's life harder down the line. I'm not really sure how or why.

They’re setting up Labour as the party of wasteful spending. The party that spunk ‘good, honest, hardworking people’s taxes on lazy dossers who could work’ (even though pip isn’t an out of work benefit)

And hoping to have enough of an impact that they could squeak a win, or at least get certain sections of society up in arms against disability benefits to make labours position seem weak if they don’t make cuts to them

Also if people are talking about this they’re not talking about the state of the NHS, the absolute decimation of early interventions from the likes of CAHMS and Sure Start, and the absolute shambles of education funding.

If you get people talking about someone worse than you then they stop talking about you…

I didn't even consider the fact that PIP isn't even an out of work benefit. It makes all the commentary surrounding get people back to work etc. even more odd.