To wonder about the OP whose daughter had ASD and she was going zero tolerance any associated behaviour for the happiness of her other child, herself and husband.

[Shestolemyboyfriend]

I remember a poster who had a daughter with Autism and was having meltdowns due to beig overstimulated al lot of the time. I think there were issues around misophonia around eating , control over the TV etc and who could be in the room at any time. The OP decided that the needs of the few were outweighing the needs of the many and had decided she wasn't going to engage with any of the behaviour any more as it was making the rest of the family miserable. She had everyone divided but it sounded so hard for the whole family with a seemingly no win situation. I wonder how she fared and how it all panned out. I have a friend in a similar situation and she is doing the same with her son, after some kick back the dynamic is totally different. I just wondered how it worked for her.

Well done to you and I’m so pleased he is making progress in life.

Like, I’ve given my son specific things to say when he’s in group projects (his personal bugbear) so instead of “why haven’t you don’t your bit yet, we’ve had ages” say “what you’ve done so far is great, do you need any help getting the last bit finished?” Or “it looks like you’re not sure where to start with your bit, would you like us to work together for a while”

Basically ive had to teach him tact. But it works for him because it makes his social interactions more pleasant.

I have a similar approach with my DS(7). It’s not zero tolerance and in fact I make a lot of allowances for him. But he does still have to follow the rules, there are a lot of boundaries in place (screens not allowed in his bedroom during the week, but at the weekend he’s allowed his iPad for a bit in bed before he sleeps, for example). He doesn’t get to dictate anything and tbh he doesn’t really try anymore. He might sulk a bit if he doesn’t like what he’s being asked to do, and he’s getting a bit hormonal too which means there might be stomping or door slamming every so often, but generally speaking home life is very happy and calm and I do think a lot of that is because we’ve never used his disabilities to give him the power to control everyone else.

He is at a special school and they take a similar approach and he’s thriving there too.

I don't think sudden sweeping changes like zero tolerance approaches ever work well with autistic kids. But I do think that they need boundaries, and that there is a danger with the current trend for lowering demands that what happens is that child's window of tolerance shrinks and shrinks until they are not only school refusing but refusing all the demands of social life, and making family life intolerable for the other members of that family. So finding a balance between the needs and wants of everyone in the household, and slowly and steadily working on boundaries and social behaviours to help everyone to live together and in the social world, is really important. Really hard to find that balance, but letting an autistic child believe they are in control of everyone around them as just as scary for them as if is for a NT child. They need to know that their care givers can keep them safe and that the world is not going to fall apart if they have a meltdown. Permissive parenting approaches do not teach the child this, instead it teaches them that they are out of control and nobody can protect them because when they push the boundary they find a curtain where a wall should be.

@Sirzy
@Sirzy, sorry for double tag, couldn't delete. I like your approach, it seems the right way to me as an autistic person.

Zero tolerance is not teaching someone how to behave.
Zero tolerance means no stimming ever, no adaptations or adjustments made ever.
Zero tolerance means not allowing someone to leave a situation that they find overwhelming.
Zero tolerance often (not always) involves punishment for stimming or meltdowns.
Zero tolerance is torture and child abuse.

Having reasonable adjustments and allowing someone to stim in a safe space (for them and others) whilst allowing them to remove themselves from a situation that is overwhelming, should be the go to, not pandering nor zero tolerance

@Hoardasurass
You use language like "abuse victims".
Could you explain why you feel that learning to modify your behaviour, even slightly, with the hope that it will enable you to live a fuller life in the future, is abusive?

We all live together in society do we not? It's not a case of people close to those with ASD not acknowledging that they are making adjustments. It's a case of knowing that if you were to wish to have any kind of relationship with the people around you, then learning skills that will help you, especially while young and have support is easier that as an adult.

Just as a hypothetical question. Do you think that extended family gatherings should involve lengthy adjustments for one person, for instance the location, choice of music, lighting, food served, the way people dress, time of day whatever? This is presuming the person wanted to attend of course.

What would be the best option do you feel?
• The person does not attend because they and their family know they can't cope with it.
• The person or their family try to tell the hosts to adapt all the event for this one family member.
• The person attends knowing that they may find some things a bit difficult but will manage and will also enjoy other parts such as seeing family.

@Hoardasurass
I see that you are replying to the choice of expression "zero tolerance".
I however was referring to an old thread where a mother had chosen to stop expecting her family to be controlled by her child in day to day life.

I acknowledge that we are talking about 2 different things.

Maybe, but the family may have other priorities for what to teach him. You can't teach everything at once.

It's so much easier to see what another parent hasn't taught. You wont notice what they have taught because that's just what you expect a 13 year old to do.

One example of exactly why it doesn't work to allow a child with ASD to dictate family life the way they like it is my friend's situation, 8 years later having a second child with ASD who wants to insist on everything being done differently to the way his older brother wants it. NOW his older brother needs to learn to compromise. It would have been so much easier and happier for everyone if this had happened a long time ago.

Interesting, can anyone remember who the OP was?

I have asd. I was not allowed to control everything as a child, sometimes I'd have a meltdown. It wasn't abusive it was just how parenting used to be. I'm glad I wasn't chronically indulged, as honestly the world has not bent over backwards for me, and I'd have been entirely unprepared for adult life if I was used to getting whatever I wanted or never having to do things I didn't like.

I also think a lot of parents use PDA as an excuse not to support their child to learn to cope better with demands. I know it is so so hard living with a child with PDA but many do nothing to help support their child by giving into every single thing. I also think parents of children with ASD with no PDA use the PDA ‘excuse’ to just let their child have their own way, which does nothing to help their children or the reputation of PDA. I had a former friend hit the roof when professionals refused to say her daughter had any PDA traits, because she doesn’t. ASD and bad behaviour can co-exist, not all bad behaviour is because of the ASD.

@greyandbluewool when you say learning to modify my behaviour what exactly do you mean? I ask because you don't seem to understand that zero tolerance means that I have to pretend not to be autistic.
As for telling someone not to stim and not allowing them to it is torture. Stimming is not something that I chose to do or even want to it's a nessceitty just like breathing, and preventing me from doing so causes real life emotional harm and scarring.

As for your hypothetical question, yes some accommodation should be made if the host wants their autistic family members to come.
So things like making sure that there's food that everyone can eat on offer (just as you would for someone with an allergy).
Not organising a trip to a loud nightclub if they have misphonia of issues with flashing lights (as you would for epileptic family).
People should be free to dress as they choose so long as it's appropriate for the situation (ie not turning up to a church dressed in fetish gear etc).
If family and friends can't make reasonable adjustments then they don't actually want my son and I to attend so we don't, it's that simple.
My friend do make reasonable adjustments just as I do for them (allergies and photo sensitive epilepsy), it's really not difficult and we all accept that there will be things that we just can't do and don't begrudge others who can and do but we don't expect them to pretend that they don't have allergies or epilepsy and just come along and deal with it nor do they us (ds and I are both autistic).
My family however believe in zero tolerance and purposely choose things that are especially triggering so we are basically nc with all of them and fully nc with my parents and sister, which suits everyone as they get to pretend that they don't have an autistic child and grandchild and I can protect my son and myself from their abuse

@Hoardasurass As for your hypothetical question, yes some accommodation should be made if the host wants their autistic family members to come.
So things like making sure that there's food that everyone can eat on offer (just as you would for someone with an allergy).

But that's different to what (I believe) @greyandbluewool is asking. That's of course what should be done, I interpreted it as some people think because 1 person won't eat a certain thing that it shouldn't be allowed at a venue, and no one else would allowed to eat it either?

That's ok I've just seen your post (quoted above) after typing (slowly) and posting the response 😀
I am a great believer in finding a middle ground where everyone can be accommodated so long as they are asking for reasonable adjustments where possible (I accept that it's not always possible)

@DoreenonTill8 demanding that no-one is allowed to eat something that ds and I don't like would be unreasonable and quite frankly batshit, asking not to be served or expected to eat a particular item should be more than enough of an accommodation.

Our experience is the opposite. When my dd was in school, she could tolerate absolutely nothing. I was pretty much a prisoner in the house, because she couldn’t tolerate going out, or me going without her. Meltdowns were constant.

Removing her from school and taking a low demand approach has been transformative. She goes out. She is starting to feel safe to interact with others. She is developing friendships. Our home and family life is a million miles away from where we were.

Meltdown isn’t behavioural. It’s neurological.

PDA is a sensory issue rather than a condition in itself. The evidence supports this. It is a ‘trait’ that can come and go but the diagnostic process hasn’t quite caught up.

Good advice.

My sister wasn’t diagnosed with ASD until she was in her twenties (they didn’t really understand the female presentation of ASD when we were young and she was coping fairly well in a private girls school with mostly very good behaviour - calm classrooms, little bullying, etc. - and she was academic). She really has struggled as an adult and I know that if my mum could have her time again, knowing what she knows now, she would have been able to give her some better coping strategies instead of thinking she’d grow out of things. However, she also wasn’t ‘allowed’ to just avoid anxiety-inducing things, wasn’t given the opportunity to be controlling or restrict others’ choices in our home, etc. Humans are social animals, people who don’t at least mainly conform to society’s expectations (whatever those are in the part of the world they live in) are unlikely to lead happy adult lives. We’re better now at allowing for ‘quirks’, rightly, and being more tolerant of disabilities, but no one is obliged to be your friend if you’re controlling, rude or aggressive. My sister has supportive colleagues/bosses who understand her challenges and her strengths and (after a rocky decade or so) she’s doing well and is happy.

Reducing pressure and demands overall is likely to result in an autistic person being more able to cope when necessary.

The expectation to ‘modify behaviour’ (that isn’t what you are asking autistic people to do. You are asking them to behave in a way that is contrary to their neurology and pretend not to be autistic)… isn’t doing what you think it will. It is reducing coping ability, not increasing it.

I didn’t see that thread but have friends whose children have diagnosed autism. One had a similar approach to the woman mentioned though not quite zero tolerance and one never ever challenged behaviours. He was literally never pulled up on anything, she was scared of him. When her DS behaviours started affecting my own DS I pulled away. He was very sneery and spoke down to everyone, incredibly rude. I wondered if it was autism or really just his personality. He had zero boundaries , it was very sad for everyone really.

First being in a family affected by autism can be very hard. It's important to spread the "hardness" more evenly. So it's not zero or full tolerance, the job of the parents is to look to the long term and make sure the hard times don't fall disproportionally on any one or two people.
Secondly you can bring up all kinds of children the same whether they are autistic or not, the principles of empathy, boundaries and flexibility (!) will go a long way with any child.
Thirdly, if you're not coping your not alone, lots of people struggle and there's help available.
And finally autism doesn't come from thin air. If your child has autism then there's likely to be some elsewhere, which can make it harder.