To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

[KTheGrey]

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

Precisely.

"It sounds like the rule was introduced to protect students from each other."

I remember listening to the HT talking about this when the whole thing started. The point she made that stuck with me was that the pupil in question was bullying and intimidating other pupils. The girl who was coerced into leaving the choir had every right to be there and not be subjected to pressure from another pupil. It seems that the situation was getting out of control.
It is no different from any other sort of bullying IMO.
There are faith schools available if that is important to parents.

This was never about prayer it was about disruption and bullying by a group of Muslim students who wanted to impose prayer and religious compliance on other pupils. The new rule was brought in to deal with that. Teachers were threatened as well as children.

Yes. I think Michaela has handled this incredibly well tbh. This prayer thing was in protest and being done in their tiny playground that used to be a car park. The school has lots of Muslim kids and the other Muslim kids were being pressured and treated as lesser then because they weren't praying. Michaela hasn't released much details and I really respect them for it as they could've really made these 2 look like bullies.

That's exactly what they were doing?

The issue’s a very good ask. Rights do need regular airing and revision. To me it was entirely reasonable.

Case got muddied cos the girl who brought the challenge (wanting to pray in a secular space) unfortunately got busted in court for bullying and intimidation of children.

The bullying targets - children from moderate Muslim families - didn’t want to pray, they wanted lunch and a break. Their choice? Their right not to be pressured? Their rights entered the arena.

It’s a secular school. No religious observance allowed onsite. Parents know this.

So does secular mean secular? Law still says yes. Muslim law allows for it. Right to religious freedom undamaged.

Over half the school is Muslim, and that majority continues to grow - as the head says, the school practices unity policies, not separatist identity politics.

The point is this girl wasn’t just quietly praying, she and her family were bullying and intimidating others and the “prayer” was just one manifestation of this.

there are some strands of Islamic extremism that aren’t interested in people quietly following their own faith - they are aggressive imposers on others - see Iran and Afghanistan at the moment as two examples. Also Hamas, Hezbollah and Houthis.

the extent to which westerners, especially women, are determined that extremists’ rights be defended so they can strip everyone of theirs, is baffling.

I say this as someone from a family of very moderate Muslims.

In France we have loads of faith (mostly Catholic) schools ?

In reality, laïcité (lay in English, or secular) is a myth, all schools and town halls etc. put up Christmas trees, lights, decorations.

I agree that Muslim pupils should be allowed to pray as long as it does not interfere with their studies and also that more hardline Muslims do not pressurise other Muslims to do non haram extra curricular activities such as joining the school choir.

This is the danger here, the school already has a majority Muslim pupil attendance, the headteacher is, quite rightly concerned with the pressure some of the more observant Muslim pupils have over the less observant Muslim pupils. Presumably the headteacher is concerned that the more observant pupils may go the way of Shamima Begum and become so radical that they will follow Isis/Isil/whatever it's called now and then run away to Syria to practice terrorist activities. I agree that my last sentence sounds a bit extreme and it is really, but it's not far from the truth is it?

Already a pupil and her mother (seems to have been more her mother's choice to take this matter/case up with a solicitors firm) have been allowed to progress this case, and think that their religious beliefs and prayer amount of times a day matter more than education.

As people have said in the media, if the parents wished for a stricter religious school, they should've sent their children to a faith school. The only reason the girl's been sent her is because it's very strict and presumably within her family's catchment area.

I think the headteacher is brilliant. More and more schools are following her model of teaching, especially in deprived areas where this is desperately needed.

I rather hope the school finds itself at capacity when the mother attempts to enrol the sibling.

I have no issue with people following a religion, I have every issue with religions thinking that they can bully every fucker else into submission.

Agree with this. I've worked in Muslim countries and religion-shaming of the less observant is a thing. Anecdotally, worse among women.

The student was awarded legal aid to bring the case to court.

If that's the worst that went on in the playground the pupils must be saints.

I am very surprised indeed that the schools right to set its own rules overrode the individuals right to practice religion. For this reason I hope there is an appeal so the judgement can be analysed more closely.

There's no need to become a racist just because of one Muslim you disagree with. I'm sure there are white people doing equally unreasonable things in the courts.

You only have to look at the treatment of women in Iran by the women whose job it is to ensure compliance with religious dress and activities. I can't remember what they are called.

The head was extremely discreet about the ‘pressure’ the pro-prayer lobby applied to pupils and staff.

She barely mentioned the attack on a black teacher. Or the brick through the window of another’s home.

Least said, soonest mended. I hope those poor teachers have recovered though.

I’m from an ethnic and minority group. I don’t think some posters understand how much pressure to conform can be brought to bear on people who step outside expected cultural and religious norms. It can be pretty awful. In a school with such a large muslim population ensuring religion stays at home also gives freedom to those kids who don’t want to conform or come from families with less orthodox interpretations of religion. It provides a safe, secular environment for those kids.

A Muslim girl in france was beaten into a coma by some other muslim girls for dressing in a western style. That is how awful it can get. The girl who brought the case had been previously suspended for threatening to stab someone. She and her family seemed to have created a really toxic environment for other students and teachers.

I wouldn’t want that woman or her children anywhere near a school my Dd was in. One can’t help but to think the girl being allowed to continue at that school will make many feel frankly unsafe if kids were being coerced into religious expressions or quitting choir because of her.

But they weren't asking for a prayer room, just to be allowed to pray in the playground during their lunch break.

The problem is that the playground is in full view of public passing by on the street. The result was that the school began to receive lots of threats and abuse. "The callers accused the school of disrespecting Islam by requiring the children to pray outside in wet and dirty conditions." (quote from the published legal judgment) The school also received a bomb threat.

am very surprised indeed that the schools right to set its own rules overrode the individuals right to practice religion. For this reason I hope there is an appeal so the judgement can be analysed more closely.

If you'd like to analyse the judgment more closely, here is a link to the 84 pages

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Judgement-R-v-Michaela-Community-Schools-Trust.pdf

Thing is even if you forget about the praying as such. This girl and her mum and her friends went around bullying people and abusing them if they didn’t want to pray or again if we skip the word pray… because they didn’t do what bully girl and her friends wanted. So they took it to court when the school put in place things to stop bully group being able to bully more.

Do we give in to bullies…

Very well put, Noicant

As a PP put it the HT has been very discreet about the attacks, which was probably the right thing to do; trouble is it's enabled some to brush these aside as if they somehow don't matter

It is of course true that as with any religion only a minority behave like this, but unfortunately that minority make a lot of noise and I expect the school would rather prevent this spreading

No, this is incorrect. The school has a clear non-religion policy, with no prayer rooms, no concessions to any religious or faith demand (they do Macbeth in spite of Jehovah’s witnesses; no separate crockery for Hindu pupils etc). The only concession is ALL meals are vegetarian so children can eat in mixed groups instead of segregated to promote unity and cohesion. This is made very, very clear pre enrollment. Some pupils started spontaneously praying in the playground at breaks for a brief period. This was ignored by school management for a time until it began causing problems. When some of the praying students started hassling non participant muslim children the school banned the playground prayer to nip the bullying in the bud. This worked and returned things to normal. The court case was raised afterwards but it is not clear if it was a direct result of the ban on the playground praying. The school has outstanding results, behaviour and cohesion among it’s pupils - gets over 800 Visit requests a year from other educators looking to replicate their success.

This happened to a school friend of mine years ago. Was a normal moderate Muslim girl at school and got married to who seemed a moderate Muslim man and had children and moved to Dubai. At school, she didn't wear any head coverings (wasn't allowed back then anyway) and at home her home life was fairly strict but she listened to Western music, wore Western clothes and occasionally sneaked out with us for fun to clubs/discos always saying she was staying with another moderate Muslim friend. There's photos of her after she got married on holiday with her first DC in a swimming pool with her hair loose and in a normal black one piece swimming costume and wearing Western clothes!

When she moved to Dubai all our friends noticed she'd started wearing the hijab and on visits home this carried on. Her DH eventually left his job (early retirement?) and they moved back home to London. I believe she still wears the hijab which is her choice, but I did hear from a mutual friend living in Dubai that she'd heard that my friend had been shamed by her colleagues, neighbours, friends even there for not wearing the hijab or another covering and for not following her religion correctly and as you said, the women were the worst for shaming her. That is an appalling thing to do. This woman did say some quite cryptic things about her time living in Dubai and I think lots of things were unsaid about her life there. I've lost touch with her now.