To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

[KTheGrey]

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

The judgment sets a useful precedent for other schools. I hope the government effectively make it statue so there not more claims like this.

As for the girl she plainly makes no good contribution to the school and KB is v tolerant to let her in! Possession of a knife, let alone threatening someone, is a criminal offence. This family cannot set standards for themselves. Who are they to demand in it others?

Taking knives into school doe snot sound very Islamic! She might be better of concentrating on her behaviour issues rather than trying to make the entire school bend to her will.

Possessing a knife? Huh?

Can someone link up the story about her having a knife at school please. I can find stories about her threatening another kid but not about her being armed at school.

She would've been permanently excluded for that. I don't believe that for a second. There were threats etc but it was difficult to prove as she was essentially guilt tripping other Muslim kids into following her idea of what a good Muslim is.

I didn't see any mention of a knife in the judgement...she was definitely intimidating others into praying, but I don't think there is any mention of the girl having a weapon. (Bricks through windows and intimidation of teachers too, but not with knives (that I read) but happy to stand corrected if there is other evidence.

It was threatening to stab a pupil so I stand corrected. She threatened a pupil with knife ( still common assault) rather than being found in possession of a knife.

Was that the suspension the court ruled unlawful? (Can't read anything of the article you've linked as behind a paywall)

The only reference to a "knife" in the judgment is that the court noted that the school were not alleging that the Claimant had a knife. Further, the court noted that the schoolgirl had not intended to stab anyone still less would actually do so! And that the school had acted unfairly with the 5 day suspension in this regard and that such suspension was unlawful

There were two suspensions appealed - one, for being "extremely rude and defiant" was upheld as lawful. The other was found unlawful as the girl had not been given the opportunity to give her side of events.

The girl had reportedly also been suspended for threatening to stab another student, and as far as I can work out that suspension was declared unlawful, due to the school being judged as not investigating properly.

@Emotionalsupportviper

Exactly.

We are tolerant but we can't tolerate intolerance .

Islam by its nature is a religion that subjugates women and no amount of hiding behind religious freedom can remove this fact

Women and girls potentially prevented from participating in sports, acting, dancing, singing and performing. Women dress in voluminous clothing as it is their responsibility to reduce men's lust. Homosexuality is condemned in no uncertain terms

These are not the values of Britain in 2024. These are the puritan values from centuries past.

The problem I think is that ultimately it is difficult for two communities to co exist well when they have distinctly different ways of life. We have in our town and Islamic community where there is little integration and I believe at some level many in this community hold liberal British values with disdain.

I think this leads to real tensions in school for example where Muslim boys are exposed to a culture which they are taught at home is deplorable, women dressing as they like, dating, women in leadership positions etc.

A way forward is to have more truly integrated communities where we respect each others faith but can criticise the malign influences of any religion. Maybe we will as a country leave religious dogma behind with many viewing their faith as more heritage than something active with observances and culture which is not aligned to views of equality

@mids2019 Islam by its nature is a religion that subjugates women and no amount of hiding behind religious freedom can remove this fact

Islam is not one single religion. In the same way that there are hundreds of branches of Christianity each with their own set of values, teachings and behaviours, there are hundreds of branches of Islam. Some are very tolerant, others are not.

@Aaron95

Agreed to an extent but how many of branches of Islam allow women to wear what they want?

Ultimately Islam like Christianity is underpinned by religious text. I would hazard a guess that the more tolerant versions of Islam are viewed as deviation from the true faith by others?

There is a dearth of Muslim female talent on our screens, in the performing arts and positions of governance. One has to ask why female Muslims aren't taking these roles?

Probably. But then the same goes for Christanity. The (ironically named) Free Church of Scotland consider pretty much all other branches to be on the way to hell for their liberal behaviours.

Yes, the judgment says or implies it was a threat to stab not a stabbing, even so that kind of threat should never be made and my children would never threaten to stab someone in school ever. Anyway the one disciplinary upheld by the court still means the girl goes to the school and apparently she is managing okay despite not having her prayer time at lunch time. I presume she could pray in her head anyway and I doubt god would object too much.

There are 67m people in the UK and about 3m are muslim so it would not be surprising if there were not many on TV screens. The main issue in the UK is that unlike the days when muslims were often millionaire arabs from Saudi showing off expensive cars or race horses some of the new comers unlike well educated Indian doctors etc tend to be less well off so usually have the problems of poverty. They are likely to become better educated - particularly if they go to this particularly school and over a few generations become more secular so it will all be fine in the end as long as we do not kow tow to changes for the worse and which damage girls due to pressure from some newcomers to the UK.

I saw this and thought of this thread, as the Mich.. school is 50% muslim already.
It is from Bild. I did German A level but won't post the German link here as probably most mumsnetters don't know German; so just a British one - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13339659/Schoolchildren-converting-Islam-fear-German-schools.html
"Schoolchildren are converting to Islam in German schools as Christian students feel like outsiders and are desperate to try and fit in, a new study has warned.
'More and more parents of German children are turning to counselling centres because the Christian children want to convert so that they are no longer outsiders at school,' a state security officer told German tabloid Bild.
A study by the Criminal Research Institute of Lower Saxony found that 67.8 per cent of the surveyed students believe that the Koran is 'more important' than the laws in Germany.
Nearly half of them (45.6 per cent) think that 'Islamic Theocracy is the best form of government'.
In several schools in large cities like Berlin or Frankfurt, Muslim children make up more than 80 per cent of the student body, which the expert claims is due to the strong immigration in the last eight years."

When was the last time you invited a Muslim to tea?

If you want to integrate with Muslims, make some effort.

They owe you fuck all.

🎯

I like those liberal values myself. They were hard won. It's always amusing how those who prescribe strict rules re conduct assume that is some sort of decadent thinking which is weak.

It is not. I'm well aware of Islam's contempt for me in how I live. It is not going to be resolved by having a cup of tea at a community event.

Religious life can stay at home. The state does not have a role to play in supporting the eternal religious need to replicate itself. If you remove the social enforcement of religion it diminishes.

‘Islam’ is not a sentient being, it does not think anything of you.

And no, religion won’t stay at home. Does it stay at home in churches?

If you don’t like it, move to a different country.

This is exactly the same thought I have about Christianity thanks. And that too can remove itself from public life

@toomanyy

I talk to many Muslims about many things but I have had conversations where it was expressed western lifestyles were ultimately sinful and as a community some (not all) rejected integration.

I think you just need to accept living in the UK in 2024 means living in a liberal democracy where religion as a whole is declining but there is a rich Christian heritage. If the value set is different you make peace with it. I would do the same if I moved abroad to a different culture

Maybe at an individual level Muslims don't owe me anything but can you say the same about the country as a whole?

@bombastix

Christianity obviously has less impact on the country as opposed to four centuries ago and we should be glad of escaping the thrall of authoritarian religion.

The C of E in it's limited form has many women priests and a few bishops.

We want to keep this direction of travel so in a religion should stay at home and with some exceptions not impact out national life.

I doubt you talk to any Muslims.

I think you need to accept that your opinion is irrelevant to religious people, of whatever religion.