To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

[KTheGrey]

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

I agree - they picked the school . It is secular and they should not and cannot change it through the back door once in there. The school has a system where you get just about no free time in a very radical way most teenagers and parents would not like but it almost certainly stops people making trouble as they don't have much free time (a bit like a boarding school with homework club, after school activities and no time to miss your parents kind of thing).

On the mormon example some religions do try to convert people and I suppose if you think only those are in your one will live when the end of the world comes and if that is coming very soon then it is almost a kindness to tell people the message.
The issue of religion in non religious state schools is always interesting. I thought there was a law that every state school in the country had to have some kind of collective worship. I have not read the judgment yet but may be it deals with that in there. Here is a reference to the law https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/dec/03/schools-call-for-end-to-archaic-daily-worship-following-uk-census-results In the 1970s as a teenager I played the piano every Monday to Friday at assembly for some years for the Christian hymns we had 5 days a week. I love hymns to this day and still play and sing them at my piano - gorgeous words and harmonies and of course so much of "our" history in there too and I always thought it was rather nice that state schools have to have this collective worship every day. The law does not say it has to be christian so we have a hindu state school in my area for example and jewish and a muslim one I think - I am not too far from the school in the court case - and I presume they might well have collective worship of their own faiths. Some schools put on different assemblies - one of my children (Christian) used to go to the Jewish assembly sometimes at school not the Christian / secular one as Jewish one was shorter!

The mother also said she chose the school becsuse it was strict. I presume she didnt realise the strictness also apply to her daughter taking a knife into school and threatening to stab another pupil, intimidation and bullying or racially abusing teachers. Maybe she thought ' strict' meant letting her daughter do what she liked?

There seems to be a trend in the left wing press to call for less Christian worship of at least not to bemoan its fall. However there Is a double standard in that Islam is not treated in the same way possibly to protect minority sensitivities. The press hail fall in Christian worship as liberating but then have pieces saying Mulsims should be able to worship in schools as it is an integral part of their identity. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Again I think there is a fear amongst migrants that their faith will lapse due to the overall secular (Christian heritage) of our country and its liner so values. Removing religious worshipful schools shows them that the sky doesn't fall in if they don't practise certain religious observances and they may look at their faith more crtically. When a place of education doesn't support a religion then some of the most informative experiences of a young persons life will occur without the constraints of a religious education.

I know of Muslims who like Christians do give up on a lot of the religious observances of Islam and confess to not believing in a super natural being and to some extent this as maybe a natural progression but one which the more religious are deeply afraid of. Daughters not wearing Hijabs, wearing western clothing, dating white non Muslims and drinking is a nightmare that possibly keeps a number of Muslim fathers awake at night.

Additionally I think we need to cast a light on how some of the more strict Islamic practises can damage a child's education. Learning the Qran by heart takes a huge amount of mental bandwidth as well as knowledge of Arabic so this deflects from other educational opportunities (maths/science etc.). A strong Islamic upbringing teaches boys not to respect women leaders including teachers and their overall view of the world will become one a patriarchal religion first and education secone.

I think this is why we should not have a huge number of Muslim faith schools and promote secular liberal values to everyone. It is fine to have a religion in my view but not find to allow the religious dogma to set out citizens in paths that are in conflict with other values.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/16/michaela-school-prayer-ban-muslim-teacher-religion

This piece here is incredibly disingenuous and glosses over the intimidation and bullying mentioned in this thread. There is no mention of entrenched misogyny in certain certain elements of Islam. I don't quite see how a left leaning liberal paper which seems to support declining Christinaity can support another religion which if anything can be more patriarchal and dogmatic.

Hell's teeth!

I hadn't heard about the knife incident. That's horrific.

One census suggested the Jedi religion was a popular religion. I think atheists were simply mocking the census but I shows that a child could identify with any made up religion and dictate for school deteriorated rights (maybe meeting with Yoda at lunch?).

Unfortunately I think this sensible ruling is going to be deposited and the appeal will be heavily promoted in the press. I really hope that in future schools aren't made to back down on sensible policies to accommodate one religion. For logistical purposes and classroom management the prayers would have to be collective with presumably boys and girls split in a way turbulent arise in any other lesson apart from PE. This is allowing faith schooling to creep into secular schools by the backdoor and you could possibly see other areas of Islamic ideology creeping into the school.

@Emotionalsupportviper

maybe bullying and intimidation isn't haram?

I was disappointed that even in apparently the 'strictest school in Britain' abusing a teacher and taking a knife into school is not enough for a permanent expulsion. She was suspended 5 times, which is ridiculous.

@DramaLlamaBangBang

is it possible the files had mental health issues and in combination with a religious family found herself as pawn by some in the community to bring this legal action?

This is a criminal offence. Repeatedly. She should have been expelled the first time.

Yes this is a possibility. I suspected it was more the parents/Imams, despite what the parents said. Its possible to parents thought sending her to a 'strict' school would resolve her behavioural problem or they are in denial about her additional needs. But constant disruption like this doesn't help other children in the class or the school though. They want a decent education and to go to school in a safe environment and they have one child disrupting their education to this extent.

I agree.

TBH taking any weapon into any school should be immediate expulsion.

And racially abusing staff of fellow pupils should have been "one strike and you're out".- you get ONE warning, but if you don't change your attitude, then that's it.

I think it must be quite difficult to expel a child nowadays.

I think we need to cast a light on how some of the more strict Islamic practises can damage a child's education. Learning the Qran by heart takes a huge amount of mental bandwidth as well as knowledge of Arabic so this deflects from other educational opportunities (maths/science etc.). A strong Islamic upbringing teaches boys not to respect women leaders including teachers and their overall view of the world will become one a patriarchal religion first and education secone.

I think this is why we should not have a huge number of Muslim faith schools and promote secular liberal values to everyone. It is fine to have a religion in my view but not find to allow the religious dogma to set out citizens in paths that are in conflict with other values.

I feel the same about all religious schooling. Some of the really extreme Jewish ones concentrate on the faith, with education an afterthought. There is a lot of dodgy stuff going on with some schools not registered and operating under the radar. Same with some of the extreme groups of other faiths. It’s hugely concerning. Many of the ‘official’ faith schools take up too much time focusing on faith imo and not enough on general education . The Jewish and Muslim schools in my city don’t do at all well in Ofsteds

Yes this is the issue with banning faith schools. Unless home schooling is far more strictly regulated we will have enclaves of extreme religious teachings, girls not educated to the same level as boys huge illiteracy in some communities etc.

@DramaLlamaBangBang

Allowing faith schools seems to be lending legitimacy to the educational failings you describe?

I agree there must be more attention to home schooling regulation and we don't want situations where hone schooling with all it's educational challenges becomes a default option if there isnt a faith school.

I think there is general resistance to more faith schools and we have to remember a lot of faith schooling in this country originated centuries ago and there is still a rich legacy

C of E and Catholic schools have a good reputation generally in our locality but in reality the religious ethos has subsided. There are a lot of questions about Islamic ideology in schools here where there is a significant Muslim intake. I don't think we should be enabling some of the worse aspects of this ideology especially regarding the status of women for example.

One thought maybe is to borrow from the US and have a collective rendition of the national anthem? This would emphasise our shared responsibilities as UK citizens and emphasise the common ties of state that bind us!

Michaela does this, and also "I vow to thee my country". Also makes children recite "If" and other character building poetry.

@KTheGrey

I think that makes sense. We need to all feel like citizens of the UK. Whether we like it or not we are bound by the laws, history and culture of this country

So punish a young Muslim child? Noooo, that’s not racist at all 🙄

Things do change.

When I was at school there were no vegetarian/halal/kosher options, except chips. Now there are. That’s because of parents making their kids’ needs clear.

I didn’t even go to a faith school but we sang Christian worship like Kumbayaah often in morning assembles.

There is a hypocrisy in this debate.

No it's not racist. Race has nothing to do with religion. I don't have any idea what race this family are and unless you know them neither do you.

Why is it a punishment, if you don't like a school, to send your other child somewhere else? I think sending the second child there is rank hypocrisy.

How then is the school totally secular if religious hyms are sung?

Why is it a punishment, if you don't like a school, to send your other child somewhere else? I think sending the second child there is rank hypocrisy

You have to wonder don't you?

Also about what the real motivation is for wanting a second child to go there, now the law's been clarified and resulted in an outcome which clearly won't suit

@pensione

I think we have to acknowledge that the Christian faith in this country has left an indelible mark on our shared culture and identity. We have a Christian monarchy, many churches, Christian names, and Christian schools (though in decline in terms of religiosity).

there is always going to be the fact that Chrsitianity holds an important part of our cultural heritage and many people support this default. I think therefore care has to be taken when saying all religions are equal.

As I have said before Christia n observance is falling but we do not want to replace Christinaity with religions that incorporate some of the more archaic patriarchal views of Abrahamic faiths.

@Ponoka7

people considering the national anthem as hymn as it mentions God and therefore asking for it not to be sung (discriminatory innit?) Is something that would really get a lot of peoples backs up pretty quickly.

I also think when we think about religious tolerance we should not tolerate intolerance.

Islam in many forms is hugely limiting on girls in a western society. There are clothing limitations to PE, or mixed sex sporting events, Muslim girls are discouraged from acting, presenting or dancing. Muslim girls will not listen to what we would feel fairly standard pop music. Muslim girls are taught they have to do everything possible to prevent lustful thoughts from men as it's their responsibility.

The rules for girls are extremely archaic and the idea of a Muslim feminist is an oxymoron. If a Christian cult were to introduce such restrictions we would call it out for coercive and controlling behaviour. However with Islam it's all good and some would expect our schools to support such views.

More reasons for concern about faith and faith schools