To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

[KTheGrey]

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

@Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain - great post. This nasty little gambit was not the work of a child but adults. And that needs looking into

I haven't read the whole document posted here yet, and I've got no idea what cases the CPS decided to bring against the parents involved, let alone against the children

As far as I know the CPS haven't issued any cases against the mum and pupil, though whether they should is a whole other issue

This particular case was brought by the pupil - very probably with the help/encouragement of adults - rather than it being brought against her

She suspended when she broke a rule.

@Custardcream84

I disagree - the racism and Islamophobia on this thread is not "veiled"

The CPS should at the very least bring cases of inciting racial hatred/violence and also assault/criminal damage again the black teacher and other teachers.

I really hope the school and others affected by these people's appalling actions aren't cowed down into accepting their criminal actions because they're scared of the mum/daughter and their little crowd of followers and the consequences and retribution because they're Muslims. I do not hate Muslims, or any other religion. I have friends and colleagues from all races, cultures and religions and I don't differentiate between them.

I am technically Atheist, brought up C of E (Anglican) and churchgoing as a child and went to a Catholic Convent for part of my secondary education. I currently do not practise or believe in any religion, though this may change in years to come. I've seen the damage religion can cause in the world, growing up being scared by the bombs in London by the IRA and then later, scared by the terrorist attacks on London, 7/7 happened just around the corner from my then workplace and the girlfriend of a childhood schoolfriend of mine was killed in this attack (Italian woman), he is a Sikh man. My family friend, with his wife, was in New York visiting from London, at the time of 9/11 and on their way to a meeting at WTC or in that area. It was only unusually for him, that he went back to his hotel to collect something (jumper I believe), and he missed the attacks by pure chance. The only religion I have sort of followed, through my yoga practice, is Buddhism, but this has been by chance, and I don't practice Buddhism in everyday life, just at yoga classes.

And before anyone starts, people who are speaking against this mother and daughter are NOT doing it because they're Muslim.

I don't give a flying fuck if you're any religion, same goes for Catholic/Protestant/Christian which I technically am but don't practise (not quite an Atheist), you should not be allowed to force your religious beliefs onto others, and certainly not attack people in a racial manner like this poor black woman teacher was.

I have not been racist nor Islamophobic anywhere here. If I have been, please point this out.

And as I said earlier, there are quite a few cases including by this mother/daughter where racism is race on race, so from a brown person (them) to a black person (the female teacher at the school). I've also been subjected to racism by black and brown people (not much and I can sort of understand why) but I'm not allowed to speak about this.

However, following a verbal/written episode of events on myself in the workplace after BLM and coinciding with historic bullying there (a central gov dept), I spoke to a man this Spring, who I didn't realise at the time, but subsequently found out, is the Co Chair of the Civil Service Race Network. He completely sympathised with me, saw my side and was disgusted at the ways in which I'd been treated. As a black man of a similar age to me or maybe older, he's been through far more racial injustice and abuse/racism in his entire life, than a lot of my younger colleagues (in their 20s) who were now attacking me and others in my dept but this was not only racist but also historic bullying and also sexism.

Another aspect to consider is that while this case (and thread) has been very Muslim focussed, it would also set a precedent for other schools and other religions.

A pillar of Islam is prayer five times a day and it is seen as an obligation. Christians are not obliged in the same way but are strongly encouraged to pray the liturgy of the hours (including at 9am, 12pm and 3pm which could fall during school hours). Arguably, it would be more disruptive because of set times and the length of prayer (15-20mins as opposed to my estimate of around 15mins for Dhuhur and Asr (although others have claimed less than 5mins))

Could you allow Muslims to pray but tell the Christians they can’t?

Disagreeing is not any kind of religious 'phobia'.

I would hope that most can see how inappropriate it is to bully, intimidate and racially abuse, as this child did, with what appears to be the encouragement and support from the adults in her life. Amongst other things it would be morally wrong to allow any kind of change to happen in their favour under these circumstances.

@Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain

thank you for your considered and interesting posts.

we have an increasingly secular society from a historical perspective with numbers of practising Christians dropping sharply and being reflected in church attendance etc. It is quite apparent how authoritarian and patriarchal religions can be and I think a lot of people in 2024 are glad to see the back of those aspects.

It is apparent though that conservative Islam has the potential to bring back aspects of religion that many have fought for liberty from including feminists. I think you can call this out without fear of being Islamaphobic as we have the liberty to criticise religion here and that is an important liberty. I think it is wrong to feel that you can be shielded from criticism by using tenuous arguments of religious freedom.

I think in a westernized society like ours the trend is for people to become less religious and start to dispense with the performative elements of religion as well as restrictions. I think from a female perspective a religion which restricts so many aspects of life such as dress, freedom of partner choice, ability to do sports and perform in the arts has to be under scrutiny. If we allow 'freedom' of religion in schools we start a process where some of the more questionable aspects of religion are allowed to take root under the guise of freedom to practise a religion.

It is a British value to tolerate religions but there is also a value of liberty and we all have to be concerned if our liberties are curtailed by religion.

https://www.secularism.org.uk/opinion/2021/04/women-leaving-islam-the-rights-of-those-who-leave-religion-must-be-protected

There is piece here about women leaving Islam and surely we have to allow people free choice of religion or none going forward. One of the reasons Christinatiy is in decline is because children in the whole are given freedom to choose to follow Christ or not in modern society. We have to put the question whether that choice truly exists in other religions particularly Islam. If we look at Muslim majority states then you can really see there is no choice.

I am all for freedom to practise religion personally but we should have the freedom as well to not have our own lives impacted by religion if we do wish. We also should have the liberty of not being religious or dropping elements of faith without fear of bullying or coercion.

@Emotionalsupportviper

I couldn't agree more.

the problem at least locally is that some Muslims do not want their children to integrate as there is a danger of those children dispensing with some aspects of the faith. I think a few pps have alluded to this.

There are some Muslim children (not all certainly) that get very mixed messages from home at school that they have to have an element of cognitive dissonance to get
through. There will be teachers drumming into children equality between men and women and there may be a very much different message at home. LBG rights will be maintained in a school but a child may get the message from home that is profoundly wrong. Muslim children will be surrounded by girls who dress immodeslty, and kids who drink and smoke.

if you have two value sets clashing like this it is a challenge for a school but I absolutely agree with integration and non segregation. It is up to schools though to not be rail roaded by those that want a religious ethos within a school.

This morning I browsed DM (as well as other sites) and came across some articles relating to the actual case itself... so the right for this student to be allowed to pray.

To be honest, and if any Muslims (or other religion) wish to comment, without getting into a bunfight, I still don't see the need for them to pray during school hours. Someone else here mentioned Muslims praying during working hours and taking longer time than was needed to pray.

The thing for me is and it almost comes down to but isn't the same thing at all, we had smokers at an office in the distant past, when there were more smokers, and you were allowed outside to smoke. No one ever said anything but the amount of time they were outside smoking and chatting, it soon added up.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to do what you want within your break times (legally of course) and I do think, having read Michaela's rules on what they do in breaktimes, may be a bit hard-line. But, it works for Michaela. I am not saying all schools should be like Michaela, nor should all heads be like their headteacher but in deprived areas, which Brent is, you have to have rules and discipline, more so than in more affluent areas, so they say.

As an ex-legal PA/sec and at one point tempted to study law, I'll read through the docs relating to the case at some point.

Interesting and fairly balanced Spectator article here:

[[https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/frances-schools-are-succumbing-to-the-islamist-threat/

I also made friends with a NDN who's Iranian last year, who told me she was appalled the way women were being treated for not wearing headscarves properly in Iran, and this was one of the reasons she'd moved to the West, for freedom, and the freedom to not wear a hijab. She was an advocate of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe although she had moved to the West before she'd been imprisoned. She also told me, that after the way Nazanin had been treated, she did return sometimes to Iran to see family, especially older relatives, but she was more and more wary of doing so.

The girl was happy to pray in a group at lunch time ie once - her suggested compromise I suppose as could not break during lessons. This was completely against the ethos of the school as she knew full well when she joined it and she lost. Plenty of different kinds of schools do allow muslim collective prayers.

It is a bit silly that their God cannot hear prayers said quietly in your head rather than needing all this fuss and huge visibility of the whole thing https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10274505/School-apologises-video-showing-Muslim-students-praying-outside-cold-weather-sparks-outrage.html

I’m interested as to why any Muslim child needs to do this, it is virtual signalling as they can simply catch up with prayer at home after school. There is just no need for this - and it makes me sad that it’s now being weaponised to create divisions and disunity.

Indeed it is.

It's making a statement that they consider themselves "better" than others - including less devout Muslims. "Look at me! I'm so holy."

I was always taught that God likes us to pray modestly.
(Jesus said, “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full." (Matt 6:5))

I hope none of those young men become surgeons or airline pilots. Stopping part way through an operation or a complicated aerial manoeuvre might not be a good idea.

Sadly the more 'devout' and in your face the person (irrespective of the religion) the more wary I am.

I would agree.

In my experience the more "holy" they are the less truly generous of spirit.

The truly good people I have known (of all faiths) have lived their goodness - not publicly aired it.

It is a bit like the Christian message that if you give you do so anonymously so that no one sees you did so the sin of showing off/ pride does not become part of it. However plenty of Christian cultures do have occasion public displays - Spain Mardi Gras etc parades; and there is the interesting religious issue that fundamentalist Christian, Jewish and Muslim women might cover their hair to as NOT to draw attention to themselves. In a sense if that were ever a rule it was a rule to mean you are not spotted as showing off. So perhaps NOT using head covering when most of the 67m in the UK don't do it is the proper religious conduct equivalent in UK 2024 rather than the other way around.

I’m a surgeon. I manage to pray fine. Believe it or not Islam is flexible but where possible it’s nice to be able to pray on time or within the proscribed hours. Even as a surgeon we don’t operate non stop for 8-10 hours. We have bathroom breaks and lunch breaks even during a 12-14 hour ops which my specialty does. If I have twenty mins to go and have lunch I can use 5 of those to pray. If I don’t or have emergencies to deal with or patients that need immediate review (happens often) then I pray later. But if I have an hour lunch BREAK (break being the operative word although it’s rarely an hour or rarely not requiring me to see patients review scan reports or speak to colleagues) then I usually have time to pray. I wouldn’t worry about Muslim surgeons and pilots. There are plenty of us and our workplaces manage to provide enough space and time for us to pray when we can. It’s a shame that schools are not providing this.

it just is upsetting the rhetoric that people are trying to force religion down people’s throats. Most genuinely are concerned with themselves. If there was a room available people can just take themselves there and do their prayers. I certainly don’t announce to the world what I’m doing or where I’m going when I go and pray I just do it.

@Custardcream84

I am certain that you do not make a point of bullying or shaming your colleagues into joining you in your prayers. Also confident that you don't berate your female colleagues for not dressing modestly or covering their hair. That would not be acceptable in the work place and it isn't acceptable in school.

Believe it or not Islam is flexible

I do believe it @Custardcream84 - I have worked with many Muslim people, and like the rest of humanity some are nice, some are nasty, all are human.

I know from them that there is flexibility built into the prayer requirements. That is why I feel that what happened at Michaela was nothing to do with true faith.

Given prayer is flexible there was no need for any of this. Children should be encouraged to pursue their religious activities outside of the classroom, to encourage inclusivity and proper integration.

The school is secular. Parents sign to say they agree with the policy of a prayer ban ( I think). Moslem kids started overtly praying and intimidating those not following Ramadan. There's no prayer room cos the school is secular. Parent takes school to court.
How mother who was desperate to get daughter into Michaela School took head to court (telegraph.co.uk)

Years ago, just as it was becoming trendy for Muslims to wear hijabs etc I was in my local Sainsburys, doing shopping. There was a Muslim girl, not in a hijab but young and on the checkout, I'd seen her a few times and she always came off ok, fairly friendly.

She was serving a customer and suddenly whilst she was doing this there was a stand-up row, mostly started by the checkout girl from what I heard, which included a few phrases like 'how dare you disrespect me', and ended with a line about 'her being Muslim'. It seemed like the checkout woman had pounced upon a look or a comment the woman customer had said (I didn't hear this) and had just let rip. This young checkout woman was dressed in a Western fashion, with lots of makeup, manicured nails, big hair. The row got so heated and had lots of swearing, mostly from the checkout woman, that her supervisor had to come over and forcibly remove her as the white younger woman customer (guessing 30s?) was starting to get upset, not teary, but shocked at what had happened. The younger woman was denying she'd said anything offensive, said 'I was just trying to do my shopping'. I was just behind her in the queue.

I don't know what started this argument, but from how I viewed it, the checkout woman was spoiling for a fight and took a chance comment or something from a female customer to have a go. This was way before the hijab wearing became mainstream, at least in our area, approx. 18-20 years ago (gosh that sounds a long time ago!).

I think back then, that this was a sign of more radical behaviour amongst Muslims, it was post 9/11, 7/7 and our area was/is fairly diverse but is or was back then, white and lower to normal middle class (working class really as they all 'work').

I never saw the checkout woman again, and I'm assuming she was fired. I don't think shop work is easy though, customers can be rude, it was also at the time when customer service in general was going on the decline, e.g. in even a department store you'd get hardly any response from someone who'd served you. Me, personally, if I don't get a polite response when I've bought something, I won't return to that store, it's not about the master/servant equation but I expect a certain amount of civility when I conduct a transaction, rather than a grunt. The young man in the Greggs in Tescos (SW London) who made my tea and served me a vegan sausage roll the other day was lovely, polite, engaging, funny, probably had SEN/ND from my engagement, but was so nice, that I'd return there because he made an effort and was funny. In fact most of the Greggs workers are charming (apart from the ones in St James's Park area, a bit grumpy!) and that's why I return.

Yes, there are certainly middle aged muslim UK women delighted not to cover their heads who then find the teenage rebellion of their daughters was not s ex drugs and rock and roll but fundamentalist Islam in a sense. The school here is a very special one which is completely secular but which has 50% muslim pupils. The UK then seemed to get very fundamentalist often Saudi type - I think I read about Deobandi, never mind the sunni, shia divide and the fact that some in the UK have escaped dreadful islamic regimes abroad like Iran and now campaign against them in the UK (one journalist was attacked in London https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/17/world/europe/uk-london-iranian-journalists-repression.html ) whereas some support the regime from which they came abroad - same with Chinese dissidents and those supporting the regime.

So I can see why plenty of muslim parents might want their children in a secular school where religion plays no part.

Anyway thankfully the court came up with a good judgment supporting the school. I agree with the doctor above that you can pray without anyone knowing (as Christians of course can and do ) and there is no need to do it in groups where people can even see you are doing it.

Let us hope we can all continue to live at peace with each other in the UK with all our different views largely in harmony with each other (one reason the UK has never been so popular and we have never in our history had as many people coming here because we are one of the best nations there is for tolerance and democracy).

But... you can't have it both ways can you? Re Muslim parents wanting them to attend a secular school where religion plays no part and then stomping their feet when their offspring 'does' want to exercise their right to a more extreme form of religion.

I wonder how many Muslim parents who aren't radicals, would prefer for their DD's (or DS's) to be less radical if they do become radical? I suppose in a sense, if they're not radical, it must almost be as bad as their child getting involved with drugs/alcohol and the quandary must be, should they leave their child to find their own way, even if they do become radical, or should they crack down on this, especially in the light of Shamima Begum et al. I know several Muslims through work and a couple personally, and the ones who are more Westernised (tends to be the older ones), they really just prefer to keep religion separate from work/school and to live a fairly quiet life! Even the younger male ones I worked with who went to mosque on Friday lunchtimes, they generally kept work/life separate and would never, ever bring religion into the office.

I did once know a Mormon contractor who became 'friends' with me via email and when I had to go on site to a Birmingham office where we had a job on (worked for architects) we sometimes met up, as he knew the site and area very well. This man met me at a delicate and emotional time in my life where I'd been very depressed at one point and he set about trying to convert me to be Mormon, giving me a Bible, sending me links to Mormon websites and telling me all about Mormon discos/events, benefits of not drinking caffeine etc and even at one stage (his wife was ill with breast cancer), making allusions to me possibly being married to him (she was expected to die at one point) - he wasn't my type at all. Now I realise he was trying to have an EA with me, but at the time I innocently thought of him as more of a friend as he did give some good advice, and we just spoke via email/phone. My best friend had also recently moved back to Coventry from London, so I'd often go to Coventry via Birmingham to see her. The last time we met up, it was for a late lunch, on site, and I got a slight off vibe then, he reminded me slightly of the male character (can't think of the name) in William Trevor's, 'Felicia's Journey' in description of his looks (he tries to murder Felicia). If it happened now, I'd run fast in the opposite direction, and he was being inappropriate by trying to convert me into being a Mormon but I understand this is what they sometimes do.

I agree exactly with the rest of what you say though.