To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

[KTheGrey]

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

This attitude is really offensive. Minority religious groups are taxpayers too and the justice system is there to protect all citizens.

Possibly a change of skin colour. You know, so everyone can ‘fit in’.

I think you are all lying. You expect other religions to follow what is happening to Christians becoming secular. That, to you is evolution. You can’t handle anyone not agreeing with that so you want to squash them in some colonial show of best of British.

No I don't. I know lots of children who are more or less religious than the rest of their family, and going to secondary school is the perfect time to start thinking about your own beliefs and not just following your parents.

By punishing the other child I mean restricting their school choices which is what the thread is about.

I thought it was that they started harassing Muslim children who weren't joining in with the prayers?

This is key. The playground prayers weren’t about a devout bunch of students innocently getting their prayers done the best way they could. It sounds more like a power play.

As a pp eloquently described there are no practising Muslims in this country alongside a lot of non practising Christians.

Historically religions have thrived through authoritarianism (plenty of historical examples in fact history is littered with them....blasphemy anyone?). If we remove authority and social coercion through pressured religious ritual the religions become weaker

I think there are many Muslims afraid that their religion and culture will fade and be encompassed by our general liberal views because there are too many opportunities for their children to become westernised and ultimately become non believers.

Ritual Islamic prayer in schools quicky shows which Muslims are veering from faith and this lack of observance may have ramifications in the community. I suppose a similar example is the hijab.. . what are the family and extended community reactions if it is noted a girl simply removes it on school premises.

What 'truth'? 🤔

Do you honestly imagine that head teachers do things to annoy people of religious faith? Your mind is interesting.

The head teacher has set out to give kids of any religious backgrounds a stellar education. To do this, she expects members of the school community to tolerate others and to make some compromises.

If you can't tolerate compromise or won't work hard it is not the right school for you. She's pretty upfront about that.

Nobody says the mum didn't have the right. But there is such a thing as vexatious litigation and also why do Maya Forstater and Sall Grover have to self / crowd fund when this lady doesn't? It is a strange world for sure.

Why would the school tolerate racist attacks on black people? And bullying and intimidation of young children.

The Playground Prayer group didn’t play nice. Bricks through teacher’s home windows, etc..

Not the smart way to try and prove your point.

I thought it was a good, just result. There are a lot of choices for schooling in the U.K.

They don’t need to pray in school to fulfill religious requirements! They can catch up perfectly well either side of the school day as thousands of children have done for years.

They may have to. Muslim faiths pray 5 timed a day, and some of those times are during the work / school day.

That's not to say that it should interfere with other activities like a work meeting or a class, but of course it should be possible to accommodate.

The utter lack of tolerance here is actually upsetting.

There is no prayer room-in line with Michaela's equal treatment of religion, inclusive not divisive secular policy.
Thus Muslims began praying in the playground, leading to the school receiving vile threats from lobby groups & fanatics believing the Muslims were singled out, an 'oppressed group'.
Muslims are 50% - & increasing - of the pupils.
It's good to have the judgement support this ethos against divisive idpol, & the mother should let someone else have a turn with the legal aid & concentrate on some closer to home parenting.
Michaela is an important school, it demonstrates the positivity of setting boundaries & believing children can-do, instead of lowest common denominator pandering.

I would encourage everyone to read the judgement PP posted. It’s very enlightening about the context and why Michaela school banned prayer

Agree once again, and as the thread's gone on it's become increasingly clear who's read it and who hasn't

For a start it clarifies why the bullying/violence wasn't irrelevant/a separate issue at all ...

I had read that, too - that a group of Muslim children had begun praying during the lunch hour, but not content with praying themselves, they began bullying other, less "devout" children who wanted to spend their free time in other ways. When teachers had stopped this bullying behaviour may have been when he threats etc started.

@KTheGrey

Compromise?? Katharine Birbalsingh doesn't compromise ..,

I went to a secular secondary school where the head teacher was Jewish and the Muslim pupils were given a room to pray in at lunchtime and during lessons. I find it hard to imagine that school wouldn't support that. This was in the 90's though so things may have changed. Also I have always lived where there is no real choice of secondary school and the majority of pupils go to their catchment school. The school in the article seems a bit odd in all sorts of ways. Thankfully in that area there seems to be choices about which school to send your child to.

I posted a link upthread where a Muslim community leader said that these prayer times were not compulsory 0 the children could pray later in the evening at home.

If the set times were compulsory, why would a parent pick a school which didn't allow them?

No, of course I don’t, but you’re presenting it as though it’s a deliberate choice. They’re being inclusive by deliberately offending those of faith.

tolerating others does not mean not removing the ability to pray.

@Emotionalsupportviper

But how is that respectful or inclusive, to argue about timings, and suggest praying can be done later, rather than finding a middle ground?

I'm not talking about the ruling per se; in law, it is correct, and in practice too, valid points are being made.

But the idea that because a school is secular, it cannot accommodate religious observance, is ridiculous. Secularity should refer to the school-organised events or initiatives, and teaching, not to banning individual choice around observance.

They’re being inclusive by deliberately offending those of faith

Nonsense.

The school contains pupils of many faiths, and of none. Children who want to pray can do so silently, in their heads, as many people do day in, day out.

Prayer does not have to be public and/or performative to be sincere.

If that's what you want though, don't choose a secular school. There are lots of choices in society- I am so sick of people who try to force their choices on people/places who are clear about their position- if you don't like it, don't go there, don't mix with people who upset you. Difference is good. We don't all need to be the same. There is a difference between not being the same as others and not tolerating difference.

I thought (the rule was introduced) was that they started harassing Muslim children who weren't joining in with the prayers?

Yes and no

The lack of prayer facilities/insistence on secularism had always been there, but according to the judgment this had never presented a problem until the claimant and friends spoke to a visitor who happened to be the Head of an Islamic faith school, who stuck his oar in to suggest they pray outside

Apparently this was the point when they started to do just that, which spread to a larger group over the week and resulted in intimidation, racism, bomb scares, bricks through windows and the claimant's threats to stab other pupils - and understandably horrified, this is when the Head/Governors banned in-school prayer rituals altogether

Prayer does not have to be public and/or performative to be sincere.

Absolutely. And that kind of discussion is ideally what should have happened - a balancing of multiple needs.

For some faiths, a quick silent prayer may suffice. Potentially for a Muslim, it may not, in terms of how prayer is carried out.

It's shocking to me that Michaela was not interested in any accommodation (notwithstanding I appreciate there were broader issues around possible intimidation and coercion which is unacceptable).

I think that question is a reasonable one to ask in a court - in a secular school do I have the right to do x y z.

There are rights a child has in every school, rights they only have in some schools and rights they have in no school - it is good to understand this in more detail.

Tolerance is the opposite of banning prayer. Preventing people from praying and enforcing secular behaviour is not tolerance.

It is also exclusive not inclusive.

You can't respect diversity by banning difference.