Why shouldn’t life be made easier for pregnant women/mothers?

[Duckwithnobill]

Read quite a few threads here lately that have really shown vitriol towards advancements in working conditions, pay and other adaptations that make life easier for pregnant women and women with young children, which is bizarre to say the least on a parenting forum.

A couple of examples being resentment at the increased ability to work from home or more flexibility from employers around attending meetings/commuting in late pregnancy. I’ve seen women that take advantage of these enhancements be labelled as workshy or as the reason women aren’t respected in the workplace. Full disclosure I am pregnant and my employer has been great at accommodating my pregnancy presumably because they want me to return after maternity leave!

Then there’s the whole debate around P&C parking spaces, where some posters seem genuinely angry that there might be small conveniences put in place to make life a little bit easier for parents.

AIBU to find this attitude quite baffling? Surely improvements to the way pregnant women/mothers are treated can only be a good thing? Or should we all just suffer and struggle?

I thought having children were a choice.

Yes yawn indeed.

When people say this what they mean is “You have to STFU about any complaint ever, including if you were ripped in 2 after a dodgy birth because having a baby is a choice and you deserve no sympathy”. It’s basically another way of showing thinly veiled hate for women.

PP was talking specifically about childcare though. That has nothing to do with pregnancy and birth.
You are conflating several related, but completely separate issues. Accommodations should be given for pregnancy related illnesses/conditions, but not the mere condition of 'pregnancy'.
Women with young children... what 'accommodations' are you talking about and why is this for women, not parents? Unless you're talking about things like safe places to express. But things like pay etc... how is that related?

It wasn’t long after she’d had her baby and only the second or third time she’d been out. She couldn’t walk far at all. She also missed her appointment as a result. It was a long time ago (about 12 years ago now) but it’s stuck with me because I thought it was absolutely appalling. I can empathise because after my first baby in particular, I could barely walk round the house for 3 weeks after.

Thing is, certainly at the moment, it’s an employee’s market, and people in work now have way more sway than they used to regarding working conditions. There’s been so many times in recent years where unemployment was high and people couldn’t be as choosy or fussy with conditions, but certainly in my sector and related sectors, its the opposite now.

Any employer with good sense will want to hang on tight to good employees that have experience, have shown dedication and who it will be a colossal PITA to replace. It’s good sense to say “She’s now a working mum coming back from maternity leave - we want to keep her, let’s offer flexible working”. Or for that woman to say “I will come back from maternity leave but I’d like to work 2 days from home.

My DC were born and had their infant/nursery years pre-pandemic, but I often think now how much I’d have absolutely loved WFH when I came back off maternity with both kids, and how much it would have made a difference to my quality of life. NOT because I could take the piss and do childcare whilst I work. But because I could have had more sleep! I’d have saved time getting ready and commuting to work, I could roll out of bed at 8.55am ready to start at 9am (like I do now in my FT WFH job), I could ab e worked in my PJs after a long night and the best thing - lunchtime naps! I have had the odd one when WFH if I’ve been extremely tired, but my God I would have LOVED that as a new mum! And not just that - when my kids both went through stages of not sleeping and I’d be going into the office on 2 hours sleep, just having to converse with other humans, drive safely into work, have half my day occupied with chatterboxes etc was unbelievably draining.

So if I had my experiences I had all those years ago now, I’d absolutely be asking for hybrid working if I didn’t already have it. And frankly if other childless people in the workplace didn’t have that, it ain’t my problem. And me having a flexible working arrangement wouldn’t make them any worse off in any way. When making lifestyle and career choices I prioritise my own circumstances not other people’s.

Anyway I’m talking hypothetically about myself because those days are long gone and that didn’t happen, but I really hope a lot more new mums reap the benefits of home working because I imagine it makes an immense difference to their week to have a day at home.

@Duckwithnobill potentially your wording is misleading... or purposefully goading.
Should life be "made easier" for pregnant women or mums?
There are lots of people who would like to have life made easier but it isn't always possible.
There is however a shift towards more flexibility, but it should be in general.

Everyone should have access to flexibility.

I don’t understand this.

What would happen if people didn’t have children? To you, I mean?

It hasn't been an employee's market for close to year now, although some industries will always have a talent shortage.
Anyway, in 2024 most good employers IMO are flexible towards everyone. As a result the need for 'special concessions' is greatly reduced. Flexible working benefits a lot of groups not just parents but carers, disabled (especially neurodiverse people), etc.

Other workplaces tend to have a culture that isn't great anyway. Or, actually need the FT office presence, in which case one can't pretend that the concessions aren't affecting work output!

As an aside, when companies want to make redundancies, they do try to make people leave by stealth first... requiring office presence is one of those things.

It’s not meant to be goading or misleading, I used this wording as I’m using specific examples of changes/enhancements for pregnant women and mothers/parents. Of course everyone should have more flexibility but I’m specifically referring to enhancements that are put in place for these groups, which a lot of posters seem to have a real issue with and I’m not sure why.

Yes I’d like to know how @MuggedByReality is being penalised because somebody else goes on maternity leave or is granted flexible working. What happens to them, do they get fined or something?

Theres also something about people who sit around saying “It’s not fair, she Gets to go part time just because she’s had a kid!”. I once said to a colleague “well ask to go part time then they’ll let you if you put a good case in”. He didn’t want to go part time - he just didn’t want anyone else to be able to. These people should not be pandered to or have their spitefulness enabled.

Yep.

If somebody is child free by choice, they should just be happy that other poor suckers are putting in 18+ years of hard work and financial expense so then there are people to take their bins out, cut their hair, serve them in shops and nurse them throughout their life. These people don’t appear out of nowhere at employment age. They’ve been raised to that point by 1 or 2 people who have lost career prospects, a LOT of sleep and money, and spent their every waking hour developing them into functioning adults.

I was adamant for ages I didn’t want children (I have 2 now!) and I remember just looking at parents with slight pity thinking thank God they’re doing that and not me 😂

In my first (very easy) pregnancy I absolutely believed that no special treatment should be given, as being pregnant was my choice and not an illness. I was almost offended if anyone offered help and found it a bit patronising.

In my second pregnancy, I had severe HG and was bordering on being suicidal. I was massively bullied by my boss (who was fuming at me for getting pregnant) and would genuinely fantasise about dying to get away from it all.

The little acts of kindness I received during that second pregnancy (even just extra lifts, saving staffroom snacks, giving me a chair to sit on) was some reassurance that people cared about me and did help me to carry on. I’m forever grateful that those people made my life a bit easier because now I have a beautiful son, and he has a mum.

This makes me so sad to read some of these comments.

Why are some women so happy to see life made so hard for other women? No pregnancy is not an illness, but it can make you ill, and it’s also bloody hard work, especially towards the end when you are heavily pregnant.

Children are literally the future. Without women having children there are no children, there is no future.

A puppy is a lifestyle choice. That some of us have children is a necessity.

I don’t believe the world should bend over backwards, but really? You are creating and carrying a human being, it can be tough. Why would I want to see other women having it harder because “I didn’t have all that when I was pregnant”

This. Most women are absolutely fine to do their jobs, as usual, pregnant. If they are not fine doing that, then of course they should ask for adjustments. While some women do struggle in pregnancy, and do need adjustments, I have worked with a significant number of women who unfortunately have used their pregnancies as a ticket for an easy ride for 9 months, wriggling out of as much work as they can (and bragging about that fact to colleagues).

Wow.

Other peoples children are the ones who will manage and run the place when you are too old to do it. And kids like mine are already contributing their positive part to our world.

Other peoples kids will be providing your medical care, growing your food, delivering and cooking it, designing and making the things that make your life tick. Driving the bus/train that you travel on.

Without others you are nothing. It's called society. We each need each other to function. And a decent society makes sure everyone has a chance to life well, thrive and contribute whatever their stage of life, their sex, or status or whether they are pregnant or not.

Your kind of selfish 'me me me' attitude ignores all of this, and quite frankly, stinks.

I think there are many policies in place to try and support pregnancy and parents. I think the ones enshrined in law are appropriate (employment protections for pregnant women, paternity improving). Those that aren’t legal such as P&C parking, priority seating etc. are nice and supportive but do require a bit of social support which is largely given. In the work place it is more complicated as some allowances impact others and don’t meet business need - these should be case by case but needs to consider whether support can be offered to others as well (otherwise bias complaints could be introduced)

I agree. Horrific post by @MuggedByReality I don't know whether to be embarrassed for her, or furious with her for her horrific attitude. She is not doing the childfree by choice brigade any favours. Most of them must be cringing right now. 😬

They have a point though? It’s a parenting forum, it does seem odd to complain about parents on this of all websites.

I think some people come on Mumsnet specifically to complain to/about mothers.
Because they are arseholes presumably.

I used to say things like this before I had children. I cringe when I think about it.

I have five children and worked during the first three pregnancies.

I am of the belief that pregnancy is not an illness.

There are statutory provisions in place to enable access to antenatal care without prejudice. Employers should also carry out risk assessments for the workplace.

Clearly, pregnancy is harder for some women than others, and being open with the employer will help. Unfortunately, many women (including me) suffer terrible morning sickness when they are trying to keep everything secret.

Great post!!

Can you give examples?

People with chronic health conditions are afforded flexibility in the workplace, and it's protected under law. If you've been pregnant then you know it's a tough gig. Even the simplest, most healthy pregnancies come with any number of bodily changes that can be difficult. I admire societies that afford pregnant women respect automatically. Same with the elderly and children (I'm thinking of many Asian societies that I've lived in or visited). It's just basic human kindness towards members of the community who might be more vulnerable.