To exclude one child from family holiday

[Mama1209]

I have a strained relationship with my eldest daughter. She basically lives with her grandparents. I try my hardest to make her feel loved, wanted & included. We have booked a summer holiday abroad this year. 6 of us in total so it’s not cheap. We have just been on a weekend break and she was a nightmare! Shouting and swearing calling me names in public etc. I don’t get it because she was really looking forward to it. It’s as soon as she doesn’t get her own way she kicks off. Now me and my husband will work hard all year to pay for this summer holiday and I don’t want her to ruin it for us and the other kids! AIBU to cancel her off? I feel like she would never forgive me and it would ruin any chance of building a stronger relationship so I’m torn!

Impossible. Mumsnet is peppered with posts from people who make shit up about other people's lives in their head then use it to beat an OP with.

This

Please look at your own behaviour OP. Your responses speak volumes.

Hi op, I agree with pps who advise communicating with her like an adult. I understand your worry about the holiday but I think it would be a really bad decision to exclude her given the circumstances. There is hope if you say she has been maturing and that you have been getting on better recently.

Could you take her out to lunch, one to one, on neutral territory and talk to her about the holiday. Ask her if she wants to come? She may not want to but best to make sure.

If she says no then make sure she knows you are disappointed (even if you feel relieved) and maybe offer her an alternative like a day out with friends, a weekend away with you another time or money for clothes so she feels she has had equivalent treatment.

If she says yes then keep calm and have a serious conversation about what just happened on the weekend break. Tell her to explain what happened from her point of view and LISTEN. Obviously tell her that you felt upset and disappointed that she wasn’t able to control her emotions and talk to you about what she was feeling. And of course make it clear that what she said was totally unacceptable.

Explain that, much as you love her, you have to consider the happiness of the whole family. Also, be honest, and tell her that you are worried that she might kick off again on holiday and what will she do differently if conflict arises again? Put the ball in her court.

Tell her what your expectations are for the family holiday and that she may have to make compromises for the happiness of the younger dc. Ask her if she thinks she can handle it? Tell her you trust her and that you think she can do it (even if you are far from sure).

She probably won’t be perfect op let’s face it, it’s going to take a while for her to reach maturity and stability but she still needs you to reach that point. Don’t take what she says personally; she’s expressing the turbulence and anger she feels inside. But try and start each day with a clean slate and make expectations and boundaries clear and be confident in your own mind about not accepting any disrespectful or insulting behaviour.

One question op though; you say she may have a personality disorder and that she has had lots of therapy. Does this not need further investigation if so? Have the therapists not offered any further insights in to this? The strategy above obviously does not apply if she is suffering from a serious pd as that requires professional help but it may work for an “ordinary” troubled teen.

I understand that you did not move her to her grandparents, she chose to go there. But you allowed her to move out. As a child that will feel like rejection.

Counselling can help children process their feelings. But it does not change the family situation and how she is treated. It is why it is not a panacea.

Having a baby when she was 14/15, and having a 9 year old and your DHs younger child, will have meant you had little time for her. You can only stretch yourself so far.

If you were trying to ask a question without jumping to conclusions to get a better understanding you would not start your post with such an ugly and accusatory statement as: she lost her dad, you got pregnant, she acted out and got shipped to her grandparents.

OP she has experienced a lot of trauma. Read up on trauma informed parenting.

I have read most of the thread and the @Mama1209 responses. But I can't for the life of me understand why you let her stay at the grandparents.

I have a sixteen year old. Nothing and I mean nothing could ever make me house him elsewhere. It simply isn't an option. Given the timing (baby) she obviously feels replaced. You need counselling to repair your relationship.

You unwittingly broke the unbreakable bond, and now she doesn't trust your bond.

She did lose her dad.

Op did get pregnant.

She did start acting out due to ops pregnancy.

She did get shipped off to her grandparents.

Sorry if I didn't word it delicately enough for you I guess 🤷‍♀️

Yes she did but the way you worded your statement is obviously done to paint her as a selfish person who what jumped straight into bed with a other man after her dear daughters dad died and then shipped her off to her grandparents. As is said it's a very ugly mean way to phrase it but keep being you.

She didn't get pregnant until 6 years later, again context and details matter. You cannot summarize it in 2 sentences and act all smug like you know it all.

Some of this will be relevant but you also get really rebellious teens from families who haven’t suffered trauma, so not sure turning it all back on the op, who has posted for support and help, is very useful?

Yet you're here smugly telling me off due to your own perceptions, I never said she jumped straight into bed with anyone, you came to that conclusion all by yourself.

But, yes, as it happens, I do think op is selfish, not for moving on, but for sidelining her daughter and then blaming her for the way she now behaves.

I don’t think you are unreasonable for feeling conflicted about taking her - clearly her behaviour affects everyone regardless of the reason for it. From what you have said she was not sent or banished to her grandparents’ but chose to go there when there was friction and it suited her. Her father’s death may be a reason for her acting out but it’s not an excuse. Yes, allowances have to be made but she can’t just be a complete horror and expect everyone to suck it up.

Can you sit her down on her own and first of all ask if she wants to come on a family holiday. Ask her to tell the reasons why she would like to come and why she wouldn’t. She is old enough for you to be able to say plainly why you would like her to come and the reasons you are reluctant to bring her. Be very specific with the questions and your reasons.
If she is to come it has to be conditional on both of you agreeing to behaviours as everyone else is affected by the friction, not just her and you. If she can’t agree on a way to manage her feelings she may not want to come at all.

Good luck. Teenage girls are torture at the best of times, add any trauma and it’s ten times worse.

By 4 years old Dd had experienced her dad being violent towards her mum. Her parents separating. A new man moving in with his child, and then her mum getting pregnant. At some point her father died.
She seems to have coped with all of this okay. But her mum getting pregnant at 14 seems to have been the trigger to push her over the edge into anger and resentment.

@redalex261 She chose to go to her grandparents. But her mum just let her go.

'Threw a Paddy'???

It right there in your post, all summarized in a nice pretty bundle like a know it all. As I said your post was mean, accusatory and unnecessary. You start with such a ridiculous statement then claim you asked questions later, yeah that makes sense lol.

she lost her dad, you got pregnant, she acted out and got shipped to her grandparents.

How did she sideline her daughter? What if her daughters behaviour was getting so bad she couldn't cope and it was affecting her other kids and going to her grandparents gave both sides some breathing room?

But our dear Dr Phil here has diagnosed it all and figured it so quickly. Welldone.

Her daughters behaviour was why she moved to her grandparents not because she moved to her grandparents place, and having a baby 6 years after her abusive ex died doesn't make OP a bad person.

And there you are using those ugly judgemental words again, "sidelined" her daughter.

I didn't claim, it's literally there in the post.

You don't need to keep quoting that, I wrote it, I've read it, and I stand by it.

You giving me telling off like a self appointed prefect is doing absolutely nothing but derailing ops thread.

Maybe just be a considerate person not try to prove how good and perfect you are with your smug sanctimonious posts.

OPs other posts shows there a lot more going on so there is no way you can just summarize it into: she lost her dad, you got pregnant, she acted out and got shipped to her grandparents. And then act all smug like you've figured it all out.

Whereas you don't come across as smug and sanctimonious at all....

I'm all good with what I wrote.

OP, I was your daughter 23 years ago. You don’t say whether or not her Father abused her, but you mention DV & if she only witnessed this as a young child that will have caused significant trauma on its own. The death of her father is a huge trauma, whether you were together or not. And new husbands & siblings can also be traumatic for children & young people, although adults often hate to admit it. Look up Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE’s). From your responses I can see your daughter has experienced at least 3. Each ACE increases the chances of significant difficulties for the child into adulthood.

I needed far more than a bit of counselling. I’ve had to have decades of psychiatric intervention, still ongoing. I have significant mental illness as a result of trauma throughout my childhood.

At the time, my Mother also felt she was doing her best. But 23 years on she sees she made so many mistakes & that her decisions & behaviour often made matters much, much worse. However, we finally have a decent relationship. Mostly because she is genuinely sorry & tried her best to repair our relationship in recent years.

You have to be willing to admit you made mistakes if you want to repair your relationship with your daughter. It may take a considerable amount of time. Time will allow you to gain some perspective too. This is just the beginning for your daughter. It will likely get much worse before it gets better. But that’s the nature of coming to terms with trauma as a young woman. For now, the best thing you can do is never abandon your daughter, no matter how difficult things get.

No I'm not smug, I am calling you out for your callous and mean posts. You can give advice without being so mean and judgemental, and your post is all based on assumptions without the full details of what's going on.

OK, consider me thouroughly called out.

Feel better now 👍

Time will allow her dd to gain some prospective as well. She’s 17 and cannot see beyond her own needs. The op has to think of her family, herself and dd. It’s not all about dd. The op shouldn’t need to keep apologising for her choices. Imagine living life like that!

It’s lovely you and your mum have found peace, but if your story is the same as the ops maybe you could be a bit more forgiving. As an adult you can see life happens and people make choices. We’re allowed to get it wrong sometimes.

The OP has never apologised for her choices. She has defended her choices.

Its an understandable reaction. but would likely be the end for you both. You keep saying you spend time with her one on one, but how often? The fact ahe decided to move to her Grandparents doesnt mean it's actually what she wants or that she's happy there. Maybe she wanted you to tell her she couldn't and that she belongs with her family. The behaviour not good, but she's been through a lot and it must be hard living apart from you.

Sit and talk with her just the two of you, ask what she wants from the holiday, there's a technique too where you ask the kid what they think should happen when they do x behaviour, might be worth a try. Maybe you can arrange some one to one time, maybe she'd like to hang at the hotel or mostly do her own thing. Try and reduce the possibility for those negative interactions. Im not saying give in to her, but be clear beforehand so she knows what's happening, let her know she can opt in and out of plans as she wants, no pressure.

Im guessing from your non specifics that spending one on one time is not a particularly regular thing? Im not having a go, things can easily get missed when you're busy and exhausted, but it does need to be a priority. Even just the option that your regularly ask even if she doesn't take you up on it. By regular I mean specific time at least fortnightly, even if it just starts out as something little like coffee/hot chocolate at a cafe once a fortnight. Id also be looking to strengthen her connection with her siblings at a seperate time and place. You mentioned a 12 year old, if they both game even just remotely that could be a way to start building a connection. She needs those family connections.

She's been through a lot of trauma, CBT and talking therapy aren't necessarily very useful for that. Did you do anything truama specific like DBT? Maybe she needs more specialised support than what she's had so far. If I was you Id be sitting down and thinking through how I could make a concerted effort to rebuild things with her and it will have to be a long term commitment with zero expectation of anything back for a long time. Im not accusing you or saying you haven't done a lot in the past, but she's 17 and this may be your last chance to fix things. My big sister was like this, went totally off the rails, she had serious mental health problems, police involved There was a lot less help back then, I haven't seen her is 30 years. I missed her for a long time. I was a teen, young carer,.I got really really sick at the same time so I didn't have a chance to repair things. I don't honestly know how I feel all these many years later, but I know our DPs regret it and would do things differently if they had the chance again.